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Blackbird34

Is Combat Mission BS worth the steep 60$ US?

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Hi gents,

I'm not really active in the CM community but I've played the CM:SF + NATO + Marines + Upgrade patch in single player since the games first came out. I've enjoyed them immensely and they've given me a RTS experience that is really unparalleled. I come back to the series every year to get my fix. The question I have after having a look at CM:BS and playing the demo is; is this game really worth what you pay? From what I see, the units are basically the same ones from the original series and there's not much that's new, you're getting less really. Sure, it's got some neat command and game-play features that are new but, those are essentially patch worthy changes. So my question to those who have experience with CM:BS is; what has it got to offer for such a steep price?

Follow up questions;

1. Why are there no Avenger SAM systems for the US, there's a big discrepancy given that Russia gets the Tunguska (lol) and, why does Russia not get upgraded T80U's from inventory?

2. What is the future of CM:BS, will this game grow and expand, can we plan to see development like new nations added such as Belarus, Finland or Poland etc..?

Thanks in advance for any input the community can provide,

Bird

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54 minutes ago, Blackbird34 said:


1. Why are there no Avenger SAM systems for the US, there's a big discrepancy given that Russia gets the Tunguska (lol) and, why does Russia not get upgraded T80U's from inventory?

Not sure about the avenger system - is it still used? But not every piece of kit available was included. There has to be something for the next modules :)

 

54 minutes ago, Blackbird34 said:

2. What is the future of CM:BS, will this game grow and expand, can we plan to see development like new nations added such as Belarus, Finland or Poland etc..?

What the following items are is not totally clear. I am pretty sure there will be more content for CMBS. Here is Steve's latest post about what is coming up:

 

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This is 2018. $60 isn't steep. Back in 2000 $60 was real money, back when you could buy a steak at the market for $2.00 a pound. If BFC product prices rose at the same rate as cable prices it would cost $150 by now.

[My mistake: 'should read 'Linebacker'] isn't in CMBS because they all got converted to standard IFVs for Iraq. The Pentagon was going through Bradleys like crap through a goose for awhile. I recall one officer said '1 year in combat equals 8 years of peacetime deployment'. So 7 years in Iraq = 56 years in wear & tear. The Pentagon has only recently turned their attention back to fighting a modern stand-up war requiring air defense.

Edited by MikeyD

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Honestly for a game that's 4 years old now, paying full price is laughable. It's also not really for you to dictate the financial freedom of others. Some may have the cash to throw at games willy nilly, others don't. Being Canadian, it actually increases the cost for me when you look at exchange. I can also see that by not even addressing the question you really have nothing constructive to say in defense of CM:BS

If that's true why would the Linebacker not be implemented in it's place? If were talking fiction, a War in Europe with a modern army, such assets would be brought to bear so that argument is really mute. This isn't an insurgency game. 

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Also, Boeing has proposed a modernized Avenger system with AIM9X implemented so the Avenger program is alive. From the sources I can see it's still in service anyways. I can't bring myself to believe that the US would dismantle it's ENTIRE forward SAM force to use as patrol HUMVEES

https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/1260222/

Edited by Blackbird34

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17 minutes ago, Blackbird34 said:

Honestly for a game that's 4 years old now, paying full price is laughable.

In most markets you get to pay full price for something that's new and if it's crap you are SOOL.  Here you have a system that is tried and tested and has consistently received the highest praise and the CM2 system has become a classic.  You generally have to pay more for a classic than what it cost years ago. 

Many of us have calculated that the game is worth approx. $300 since once you get into it, you don't have to waste hundreds of dollars on other games that barely last a few days or weeks on your HD.

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5 minutes ago, Erwin said:

In most markets you get to pay full price for something that's new and if it's crap you are SOOL.  Here you have a system that is tried and tested and has consistently received the highest praise and the CM2 system has become a classic.  You generally have to pay more for a classic than what it cost years ago. 

Many of us have calculated that the game is worth approx. $300 since once you get into it, you don't have to waste hundreds of dollars on other games that barely last a few days or weeks on your HD.

Erwin, I agree that there is benefit in a tried and tested game. This is exactly what I already own and this is why I beg the question. So when we look at the series, yeah you are getting into hundreds of dollars. When you think to buy another title, one has to ask, what does this give me and where is it headed? Each installment isn't cheap, then you factor in the 10$ upgrade fees to keep the game going. It's like you're paying for map packs essentially.

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Yeah it's almost as frustrating as having to buy a new MS OS every few years to be a beta tester and do exactly what you were doing before using the old OS, or paying for cable service with hundreds of channels when you only want to watch a dozen channels etc. 

It's the way of the world and it keeps a great micro company like BF in bidness.

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You seem to have your mind made up. Not sure what you are looking for.  Typically when people give you reasons why something has value, you don’t argue with them why it doesn’t. You don’t have to accept their reasoning, but you don’t engage in a debate.

you liked CMSF..  no cmbs isn’t a different game engine, but unit capabilities etc are significantly different. Hell you have drones. You’ll have to make up your own mind but if playing the demo doesn’t convince you then what exactly are you looking for here that will?

help us to answer your doubts but most folks here bought it and likely own CMSF as well and will likely buy CMSF2 when it is released. It’s like asking a deadhead if you should collect every concert. They’ll just wonder why you are asking a question when it is so obvious the answer is of course. :D

 

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Combat Mission Black Sea is definitely worth the price, plays out much differently.  There is more and different equipment along with threatening opponents instead of completing missions with single digit casualties. 

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3 hours ago, Blackbird34 said:

I'm not really active in the CM community but I've played the CM:SF + NATO + Marines + Upgrade patch in single player since the games first came out. I've enjoyed them immensely and they've given me a RTS experience that is really unparalleled.  <SNIP>  So my question to those who have experience with CM:BS is; what has it got to offer <SNIP>   

The below list is some of the things that have been added since the game you are familiar with, CMSF, was released.  Also, CMSF2 is being worked on and will have many improvements.  So if your not sure about CMBS and the demo didn't help I guess waiting for CMSF2 might be an option.  Below are just some of the things CMBS has to offer in addition to what is already offered by CMSF. 

 

MULTIPLAYER

* WeGo TCP/IP with the ability to save but not the ability to replay combat action.

* Pausable RealTime TCP/IP option. A player can request a Pause and, if the other player agrees, the game is Paused until both players are ready to continue play.

QUICK BATTLES

* Redesigned Quick Battle Generator that includes the ability for players to purchase formations, units and support, for their own force and for the computer AI. By deleting subformations/units, setting experience, motivation, fitness, and leadership levels, and attaching Specialist Teams and individual vehicles, the player can custom-tailor their force for the mission.

* Automatically purchased force options are still available for the player and opponent, as well as a "Suggestion" button in the unit purchase screen that will quickly buy a force that the player can then modify.

* Players can now choose their own maps, and preview maps before playing.

USER INTERFACE

* Two new camera control modes have been introduced in addition to the traditional Combat Mission controls: First Person Shooter (FPS), and Real Time Strategy (RTS). These new camera controls allow a player the choice to control the in-game camera in a way that is more familiar to other game genres.

* Hotkey Unit Groups. Select units and assign them to number keys for quick navigation during gameplay.

* New Load New Game dialog screen. The list of scenarios can now be sorted by size, length, or alphabetically.

* Improved Saved Game dialog screen. The list of scenarios can now be sorted by newest file, oldest file, or alphabetically, or filter between single player and PBEM saves. Save games can be deleted in the game.

* Visual Hotkey binding. A new dialog in the Options menu allows you to specify and view key assignments.

* KIAs are shown in the Soldier/Crew Panels to track soldiers lost during the game.

* The Ammo Panel has been redesigned: Ammunition is now listed by name and in discrete quantities instead of with icons and depleting bars.

* Option to disable music separate from other game sounds.

UNITS

* FoW floating icons. FoW floating icons. Instead of getting a general area "?" icon and then immediately progressing to an accurate 3D representation, now there is an inbetween stage where you get a icon that represents the general category of enemy unit and no 3D representation. This tells the player "you know roughly what the unit is, but nothing more specific than that."

* Command lines are back! Command and Control (C3) links can now be shown on the battlefield, allowing you to quickly determine whether subordinate units are in contact with their headquarters. Use Alt-Z.

* Expanded floating icon categories. New unique floating icons have been added for Ammo Bearer, Recon, Engineer, MANPADS, LMG, Light Truck (Antitank), SPAA.

* Dismounted vehicles function as Ammo Dumps, allowing formations to have reserve ammo stored separately on map (automatically distributed for certain Skill Levels).

* Player-placeable static defenses and fortifications such as trenches, barbed wire, and mines.

* Active Protection Systems (APS) are now available for some vehicles.

* Some vehicles can salvo fire two ATGMs simultaneously at the same target.

* Vehicles with laser warning receivers will display hit text warning the player that they have been lased. The vehicle will then rotate towards the threat, deploy smoke launchers and back up to cover, unless it is immediately preoccupied with another task such as engaging an enemy vehicle or moving.

COMBAT AND SIMULATION

* Ground units are now able to fire at attacking aircraft using self-propelled anti-aircraft vehicles, emplaced anti-aircraft guns, or shoulder-launched MANPADS units. Aircraft that are fired upon may have their combat effectiveness diminished, be forced to abort the mission, or even be shot down.

* Soldiers with assault rifles are more likely to use aimed semi-automatic fire at distant targets instead of burst fire. Soldiers fire weapons faster at short ranges. MGs fire longer, more accurate bursts. More realistic/varied RoF of automatic weapons. Ammo bearers and heavy weapon assistant soldiers generally use their weapons only at shorter ranges.

* Soldiers can surrender to nearby enemy units and possibly be "rescued" by nearby friendly units. This replaces the "routing" behavior from CMSF.

* Wide range of weather types and environmental effects, including rain, fog, heavy winds (with ballistic effects), different types of ground conditions, animated water effects, and more...

* Vehicles and soldiers equipped with night vision and thermal vision have a significantly improved boost to spotting abilities in low visibility conditions such as night.

* Buttoned-up armored vehicles spot enemies to their flanks less effectively.

* Improved UI display for timing of preplanned artillery missions also indicates what delay would be after the battle begins.

* Small arms fire causes more suppression than before.

 MAPS AND ENVIRONMENT

* Game performance for large maps has been increased while load times for large maps have been improved.

* Maps can now be up to 8 kilometers long or wide (up from 4 kilometers). However, total map size is still restricted to 16 square kilometers. This means that you can make a 2 kilometer wide map that is 8 kilometers long!

* Conduct combat operations in lush rural landscapes, dense urban settings, or anywhere in between.

* Heavy Rocks, Heavy Forest, Marsh, and Deep Marsh block all vehicle movement, while Deep Marsh additionally blocks infantry movement.

* Water terrain types added: Water, Reeds, Deep Ford, and Shallow Ford. Infantry can cross Deep Ford and Shallow Ford, while non-amphibious vehicles can only cross Shallow Ford.

* Bridges are now available as a terrain type. Bridges come in multiple varieties, including wooden foot bridges, small rural stone bridges, large concrete traffic bridges, and even railroad bridges. Bridge lengths vary from 16 meters to 600 meters long.

* New and improved tree and bush models added, representing a variety of European species ranging in size from small shrubs to towering evergreens. Forest ground tiles can accompany them for proper forest terrain.

* Generic buildings can now be up to 14 stories high, and have sloped roofs available in addition to flat roofs.

 SOLDIERS

* Dynamic, context sensitive equipment loadouts for individual soldiers depending on what weapon and equipment are carried.

* Expanded Soldier details. A completely new way of assigning models and textures allows greater flexibility and variety of how Soldiers look in the game. It also allows for more flexible Modding possibilities.

* When available, pre-made soldier appearance options can be toggled in the editor or QB Purchase screen by using the Appearance button. For example, this allows the player to choose between Ukrainian troops equipped with either new digital camouflage uniforms or older TTSKO uniforms.

* Night vision equipment, such as goggles and weapon sights, will be automatically and visually equipped in scenarios with low-light conditions.

* Many new soldier animations, stances and positions, including kneeling and sitting positions for crew served weapons, pistol firing animations, hand grenade throwing, crew functions, first aid, and much more...

* Automatic ammo sharing between nearby soldier Units.

FIRE SUPPORT

* On-map mortars, both dismounted and vehicle-mounted, are now available. On-map assets such as mortars are able to fire in both direct and indirect modes, using their own spotters or separate forward observers.

* Spotters are now restricted to directing only one Artillery or Air Support Mission at a time. Assets can now be group fired by shift-left-clicking them, allowing more than one Asset to be assigned to the same Mission. EXCEPTION: Spotters directing one UAV Observation Mission can also simultaneously direct one Artillery or Air Support Mission.

* Player-placeable Target Reference Points (TRPs) allow simulating prepared support strikes and ambushes. Support missions aimed at TRPs do not require LOS from the spotter, or any spotting phase.

* Precision artillery missions are available for Point targets. These missions are only available for certain artillery assets and 120mm mortars.

* UAV Support Missions are now available. These missions use UAV support assets which can share spotting information with the player and ground units.

* Helicopter and UAV Support Assets no longer require Line of Sight (LOS) for the spotter to call in a mission. In other words, the mission can be called anywhere on the map.

COMMANDS

* Scout Team Command splits off 2 men to act as scouts.

* Target Armor Arc Command. Instructs units to engage only armored units within the specified arc. As with nearly every Command, outcome varies greatly depending on unit quality and battlefield conditions.

* Target Briefly Command. Tells a unit to fire all its guns on a designated spot for 15 seconds, then cease fire.  Issuing the command repeatedly increases the duration in increments of 15 seconds.

* Mark Mines Command for Engineer teams and squads.

* Waypoint dragging. A waypoint can be clicked on and moved by dragging it to a new location.

* Grouped Spacebar Command system. Instead of getting all of the commands in a big list when the Spacebar is used, instead you get four groups of commands: Movement, Combat, Special, and Administrative. Selecting one of these presents the Commands specific to that Commands Group.

* For vehicles with more than two weapons systems, such as an IFV armed with ATGMs, cannon, and MGs, the Target Light Command will fire only MGs on the target, while the Target Command will allow all weapon systems to be fired.

GRAPHICS AND PERFORMANCE

* Shaders.

* Faster graphics, including FPS improvements, especially for infantry-heavy maps and faster video cards.

* Possible speed improvements depending on video card hardware and drivers.

* Movie Mode.

* Bright Night Mode.

* Hit impacts to vehicles and bunkers now shown graphically ("hit decals").

* Improved rendering. Normal and Bump mapping allows for more texture detail while using less system resources and improving the pressure on framerates.

EDITOR

* Independent Vehicles and Specialist Teams can be purchased and attached to any formation, allowing players to tailor their formations.

* Exit objectives.

* Improved Scenario briefing format, including a new Designer Notes subsection.

* "Reduced headcount" option to simulate previously depleted formations.

* "Ditch Contours" feature. Map editor elevation changes can be "sharp" by holding the control key when clicking tile elevations.  This allows the creation of realistic ditch contours.

* Ability to create AI Triggers that execute actions based on other units or interaction with Objectives.

* Improved responsiveness of 2D editing, especially for large maps.

* Improved load time for 3D Preview, especially large maps.

* Customized "Mod Tags" for most graphics. This allows for multiple mods for the same item without the need to move items in/out of Data folder.

* Ability to specify specific mods be used for a specific Scenario. If CM fails to find the specified mod it will use the default graphics.

* Auto-Assemble linear terrain tool. Roads, walls, fences, and hedges can now be automagically drawn across the map instead of placing them one tile at a time. The old manual selection interface still exists to allow tweaking specific Action Spots.

* BMP map overlay. Instead of having to create game maps by freehand you can now trace over a real world map within the Editor. Four different levels of transparency make the process easier by adjusting for different needs as work progresses.

* More AI Groups. The number of AI Groups available has been increased from 8 to 16. This allows for greater fidelity of AI Plans and their assigned units.

* Copy and paste AI Plans. Create a solid AI Plan, copy it, and paste it into an unused AI Plan slot. Once done the copied Plan can be modified to make a unique variant without having to build the Plan up from scratch.

* Combat Victories (Kill Stats) for individual units showing how many and what types of units the soldier or vehicle has eliminated in the mission (totals tracked for campaigns).

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3 hours ago, Blackbird34 said:

It's also not really for you to dictate the financial freedom of others.

LMFAO. He says, not realizing the irony of the statement, in which he is literally dictating the financial freedoms of BFC. Frankly, if you're too poor to afford a $60 game, then don't buy it. Get Shock Force, which is $15, or is that too expensive for you too?

No one cares about your whining, and BFC isn't going to change their prices based on your entitled opinion that you deserve the product of their labor at a price you determine.

Someone tag based Steve and burn this thread down. It's only getting worse from here. 

Honestly, the quality of posts here on the forums has taken a serious nose dive. Good grief...

Edited by IICptMillerII

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@MOS:96B2P Holy crap. That's a lot of effort you put in to put that list together.

As an owner of both SF(full bundle) and BS even I learned a lot from it. 

Give this man a medal!... or at the least a cold beer :lol:

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On 2/15/2018 at 10:28 PM, Blackbird34 said:

The question I have after having a look at CM:BS and playing the demo is; is this game really worth what you pay? From what I see, the units are basically the same ones from the original series and there's not much that's new, you're getting less really. Sure, it's got some neat command and game-play features that are new but, those are essentially patch worthy changes.

With this kind of approach maybe you should wait for a CM3 "Big bundle".

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The question should always come down to how much play/game time does one get out of a game.  For most of us on these forums we have played thousands of hours and that means that we have not had to waste money on other lesser games that may only last a few days or weeks on our HD's.  That is what makes the CM series such amazingly good value.

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How much does it cost to see a movie in a movie theater?
I think an average CM battle is worth more, so the entire game with all the scenarios is worth much more than 60$.
Add user made scenarios and quick battles, things just get better.

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CMBS is worth every penny. It's a deep, immersive and realistic gaming experience, that you would enjoy for years to come. It's has a great value comparing to other types of entertainment  I'm not sure if you could even call it an entertainment. It's rather a lifestyle choice ;)

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Coming from a guy who is used to paying third world prices 50% discount on Steam, but paid RM256 = USD60 for combat mission, and planning to buy the whole series eventually, yes it is damn well worth it!!!. My first purchase is CMBS as well.

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Blackbird34,

Speaking as someone who's economy then was microscopic (has gusted up to tiny since), who pre-ordered and has, because of head injury related delayed cognitive effects, played no more than half a dozen times or so--in any form--CMBS was still worth the money, especially in conjunction with the astronomic amount of learning in the process and from the Forum. You simply can't properly appreciate how lethal the battlefield can be until you see a tank noticed, IDed, fired at and destroyed in four seconds flat, followed by a second mere seconds later--all from a tank which knew nothing of the foe before rolling out to its direct front, in plain sight at 750 meter range. Reeling from this event, which saw one Abrams with a Veteran crew do that to a pair of T-90S models, also with Veteran crews, I asked the real Abrams guys here about this seemingly insane kill chain time, only to be told it was entirely doable! Let me put that number into perspective for you. During WW II, at 1000 meters, it took an average of 17 rounds to secure one hit--on a fully exposed tank. My buttoned Abrams rolled out directly in front of the Russian tanks, also buttoned, shot first and killed both before either got off a shot. Total ammo expenditure? Three rounds, but only because the second tank's ERA stopped one hit. The Abrams makes a Tiger tank look like a farce by comparison--in every category plus new ones.

Conventional artillery in WW II took a lot of rounds simply to get a 100 meter bracket before switching to FFE, but in CMBS, one PG shell can do what dozens if not hundreds couldn't during WW II, including having a signifant probability of a crippling-fatal hit practically on or on a tank. Lighter vehicles, of course, get macerated even with greater miss distances. Top attack munitions greatly reduce the value of cover, and lasers triggering LWRs can completely unhinge any number of maneuvers. Of course, ignoring those warnings can result in a fatal encounter with a LG munition in any of several forms. Nor is it the US vs troglodytes, for Russian weaponry is close to that of the US in capability and has other capabilities the US simply doesn't, AD being a prime example, amphibious APCs and IFVs being another. The US no longer has a drone monopoly, making life much more complicated and survival that much harder to achieve. CM WW II games don't have jamming, but it's available here and can, depending on intensity and balance, cause all sorts of disruptions and loss of capability. Try being American and fighting sans GPS, for example.  Not pretty. Nor is the US the only force with automated information sharing.  

If you use WW II tactics in CMBS, your troops are likely to die horrible deaths in two minutes or less if actually engaged. Not kidding. Lost 40% of my entire force in two turns in my earliest, and traumatic, first outing with CMBS. I was left gasping by the unbelievable tempo and desturction, leaving me so shocked I lamented aloud that I'd just wasted my money on a game light completely beyond my capabilities. Fortunately, I got help on both the reassurance and explanation of the nuts and bolts fronts, alowing me to first remount my bike which had training wheels and utlimately getting to the point where I do without them and could play with some degree of skill. 

Could go on and on, but I believe CMBS offers a unique, and searing, wargaming experience the other CMx2 games don't, because these sorts of capabilities have never all been present, and the US has never faced such a technologically capable foe, fundamentally changing the whole battlefield dynamic. If you have any interest at all in modern and near-future warfare, CMBS is a must purchase.

Regards,

John Kettler
 

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23 hours ago, TJT said:

@MOS:96B2P Holy crap. That's a lot of effort you put in to put that list together.

As an owner of both SF(full bundle) and BS even I learned a lot from it. 

Give this man a medal!... or at the least a cold beer :lol:

@MOS:96B2P has served ... he probably has plenty of medals already ;)

Banter aside - if you want to know stuff about the mechanics of this game, he's definitely not someone I'd have on my ignore list.

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Well, all I can say is download and try out the Demo....it shows you everything you need to know.

Then you can decide.  The main advantage to these games is their almost infinite re-playability...both through Quick Battles (my personal favorite) and the huge amount of community produced scenarios and campaigns.  

Well worth the money...they are pretty much the only "computer" games I play.

Edited by grunt_GI

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A lot of game these days are pay-to-play. They may start out cheap but to get ammo/upgraded equipment you purchase with game tokens (real live withdrawals from your bank account). How much does it cost total to play through 'World of Tanks'? I read a single premium tank purchase can cost sixty bucks. Some players are spending hundreds a year. Heck, even Farmville sticks you with hidden fees!

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If someone cannot see for themselves that the game is worth the money, I am not going to waste my time trying to change their mind.

For myself, I have never regretted any purchase of BF games.

I wish I could say that for other games and items I have spent money on.

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