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Erwin

12 STRONG movie about Afghanistan

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Saw "12 Strong" movie the other day. Not the greatest war movie ever made, but not bad. 

Very interesting visuals of Afghanistan-type terrain and lots of beat -up Soviet T-whatevers and BPM's etc.  Tells the story of the first 12 man spec ops team after 9-11 sent into the hinterlands to help the "Northern Alliance" fight the Taliban. 

Maybe inspirational for a designer to do some CMA scenarios or a campaign.  Also CMSF2 if you change the storyline a little.

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I took the family to see it last weekend.  We liked it.  Much better than Fury.  It had the Hollywood explosions and the SF captain called a BMP a tank but it was a better than average war movie IMO.  It even touched on how the Taliban treated women which was interesting to see in a movie.  I recommend the movie. 

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Not really one for CM:A.....CM:SF I or II would probably be the best way forward for this.

On ‎31‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 10:45 PM, Erwin said:

Soviet T-whatevers

Only two main types in Afghanistan, T-54/55 & T-62 (during the 14 year period covered by CM:A).....Know them by their road-wheel spacing and gun design:

T-54:

T-54_1949.png

Gap after first road-wheel, no fume extractor.

T-55:

T-55-NVA.png

Gap after first road-wheel, fume extractor at end of barrel.

T-62:

T-62.png

Gaps between 3rd 4th & 5th road-wheel, fume extractor 2/3 way down barrel

FWIW

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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18 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Not really one for CM:A.....CM:SF I or II would probably be the best way forward for this.

 

??  According to the movie the Taliban were using old Soviet stuff from CMA era.  Not accurate??  And who cares.  It would make a good scenario.

(Did you see the movie even?)

Edited by Erwin

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Am talking about a good scenario (ie interesting, different etc), regardless of nationality.  Your CMA scenarios could be redone in CMSF with US, and vice versa. 

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I'd use CM:SF @Combatintman, @borg & I worked out a good composition for a SF team....The problem with such a small unit is it's fragility, one tank round or even an accurate burst from a HMG can ruin your whole campaign.  This was the problem I faced when trying to balance the early 'Abdul Gul's War' scenarios.

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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So... you have not seen the movie and have little idea about what is being referred to here, but are fearlessly critiquing the concept anyway.  That is sort of admirable and interesting... in a strange way. 

For anyone who has seen the movie, it occurs to me that with a bit of editing one could create 4-6 x 2 or 3 man elite teams to go along with the mass of "Northern Alliance" type anti-Taliban forces.  Elite SF types are basically support snipers and FO's in this sort of terrain.

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@Erwin it is ironic that you criticise @Sgt.Squarehead for not seeing the film and then go on to make comments about what is achievable in an editor that by your own admission you are reluctant to use.

I know quite a few people who have designed scenarios and my perception is that people who go into the scenario editor generally do so because they have seen something that inspires them or that that they have a desire to create/recreate something.

I have spent 8 years of my life on operational service, I have more data and experiences that I could convert into scenarios than you could ever wish for. Some I can make into scenarios, some I would rather not.  That is the hard side of it. The soft side has many factors but I'll keep it to five:

  1. Does this interest me?
  2. How much time can I commit?
  3. Will players want to play this scenario/campaign?
  4. Can I make this work?
  5. What will my wife say?

I appreciate that this is a sweeping statement but I would wager that the majority of people who play CM have an interest in military history. You only need to look at the various realism threads to understand that.  If my premise is true, then they are likely to have watched lots of documentaries or films about warfare and have read lots of books or magazines about warfare. The takeaway here is that there aren't many people in need of good scenario/campaign suggestions.

For me it all comes down to passion and my wife's assent - if all five of the bullet points above are ticked, I'll think about creating it.

Now I'm pretty sure that you are perhaps the most avid of mod collectors/users. A lot of the points I make about scenarios/campaign suggestions I am sure apply to modders. From my read of the situation, many modders create things because:

  1. They want to do it.
  2. They are prepared to invest the time.
  3. They think that their creations will be popular with players.
  4. The mod can be made.
  5. The wife is happy with it.

Given that context, 'I've seen this film', or' I've played this game' followed by 'this would be great inspiration for scenario designers' is not helpful. It is like posting pictures of uniforms or tanks and saying 'Please make this mod'.  I can assure you as somebody who has designed scenarios, I have never read one of your threads that says 'I've seen this film and I think this would be a great scenario' or similar and thought ... 'now why didn't I think of that' and leapt into the editor to make it so. Of course I am not the only person who uses the editor out there so I accept that other designers may have leapt to the challenge but my guess would be that very few, if any, examples exist.

To finish, I love your passion for the game but I remain unconvinced that your suggestions on potential scenarios/campaigns will encourage people to go into the editor to create them.

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24 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

I have never read one of your threads that says 'I've seen this film and I think this would be a great scenario' or similar and thought ... 'now why didn't I think of that' and leapt into the editor to make it so. Of course I am not the only person who uses the editor out there so I accept that other designers may have leapt to the challenge but my guess would be that very few, if any, examples exist.

I did (as you know all too well).....Oddly I've not seen an AAR from certain quarters.  :mellow:

TBH though Erwin (& @LongLeftFlank & Yourself) did me a favour.....I'm now utterly fascinated with CTS and what I've learned from reading about them has given me an insight into the wider Iraq war that I'd never have acquired via the mainstream media or Hollywood route. 

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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2 hours ago, Combatintman said:

To finish, I love your passion for the game but I remain unconvinced that your suggestions on potential scenarios/campaigns will encourage people to go into the editor to create them.

You make it sound like I am ordering something.  Am simply making a suggestion based on seeing the movie and what it depicts.  Really can't understand why simply making comments or suggestions should cause such consternation or offense requiring such a lengthy response.  It really matters little to me if anyone thinks my suggestions are brilliant or not so much. They are simply ideas thrown out there in case others have similar enthusiasms - including just seeing the movie.  Doesn't offend me at all if some people are not interested.  Some folks will be.

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13 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Am simply making a suggestion based on seeing the movie and what it depicts.  Really can't understand why simply making comments or suggestions should cause such consternation or offense requiring such a lengthy response.

Perhaps because your unwillingness to use the editor leaves you with little or no perspective as to what is actually involved in creating one of your pet ideas? 

Seriously, if you think the idea is good enough, open the editor, build a basic scenario demonstrating your concept and ask for advice from one of the guys.  You'll surely get it and then, with a little (or a lot) of effort on your part we can all enjoy a scenario based on your brilliant idea (and you will know a great deal more about how the game actually works). 

 

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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On 2/7/2018 at 12:55 AM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Not really one for CM:A.....CM:SF I or II would probably be the best way forward for this.

Only two main types in Afghanistan, T-54/55 & T-62 (during the 14 year period covered by CM:A).....Know them by their road-wheel spacing and gun design:

T-54:

T-54_1949.png

Gap after first road-wheel, no fume extractor.

T-55:

T-55-NVA.png

Gap after first road-wheel, fume extractor at end of barrel.

T-62:

T-62.png

Gaps between 3rd 4th & 5th road-wheel, fume extractor 2/3 way down barrel

FWIW

this might not apply in CM Afghanistan, I don't know how they've been modelled in that game, but more generally vis-a-vis identifying if a tank is a T-54 or a T-55...

T-54s were made with the fume extractor at the end of the gun too, like here:
640px-T-54A_Panzermuseum_Thun.jpg

the most reliable way, as far as I'm aware, to distinguish T-54 from T-55 is the dome-shaped ventilator on the turret (as seen in the above picture). It exists on the T-54, but got deleted when they were making the T-55 because it compromised NBC sealing. Many T-54s and T-55s were upgraded and refitted over their service lives, which means almost everything else was changed at some point or other, but the dome ventilator stays constant AFAIK.

Just FWIW, a bit of trivia.

Edited by Saint_Fuller

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1 hour ago, Saint_Fuller said:

Just FWIW, a bit of trivia.

Thanks for the heads up.....Would that be a T-54A? 

As I've said before tanks post 1945 are a mystery to me, it's actually only the CM games that really sparked my interest in them at all, but I'm always interested to learn more.  I'm trying to build the T-55/KMT-5 mine-roller that was 'First To Deir Ez Zor' in 1/72 scale, gathering information and the correct parts is proving quite challenging.

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Perhaps because your unwillingness to use the editor leaves you with little or no perspective as to what is actually involved in creating one of your pet ideas? 

Seriously, if you think the idea is good enough, open the editor, build a basic scenario demonstrating your concept and ask for advice from one of the guys.  You'll surely get it and then, with a little (or a lot) of effort on your part we can all enjoy a scenario based on your brilliant idea (and you will know a great deal more about how the game actually works). 

 

Have addressed this issue b4:  1)  Have made a scenario in CM1 - took way too much time and energy and became a literal headache... realized I didn't have the talent or patience.  2) Read the tutorial re making a CM2 scenario and was shocked and awed at the complexity and commitment of time needed.  Didn't have the patience or brainpower to even finish reading the tutorial.  3) Making scenarios or mods or becoming a quasi programmer to get software to work is definitely not fun for me (or many of us) and not something we want to spend leisure time on.  4)  Am just throwing things out there based on the concept of what was in this movie I saw, and neither you nor SS saw.  If you are not interested in the concept, that is fine.  Why make a big deal about it?

We're all different people.  Some folks enjoy mod and scenario making and more strength to them.  Some of us would be happy to pay a lot more to BF for faster evolution of the CM series, and for professionally created content so that we do not have to rely on volunteer efforts.  Maybe some would be upset if each game and module/pack cost $300+?  I wouldn't.  But I am not insisting that BF do that even tho' I would enjoy getting better product faster.  Conversely, am unsure why folks who enjoy volunteering their time to make mods and scenarios seem to insist that everyone else also make that sort of massive effort when to many of us it is horrible, miserable and stressful work when all we want is simply spend our leisure time playing a game.  

I would not dream of insisting anyone else did my job when I was in the movie biz even though (I thought) it was great fun.  "Fun" is in the "eye of the beholder". 

 

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30 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Thanks for the heads up.....Would that be a T-54A? 

As I've said before tanks post 1945 are a mystery to me, it's actually only the CM games that really sparked my interest in them at all, but I'm always interested to learn more.  I'm trying to build the T-55/KMT-5 mine-roller that was 'First To Deir Ez Zor' in 1/72 scale, gathering information and the correct parts is proving quite challenging.

Yep.

Polish T-54A. Can apparently be found at Panzermuseum Thun in Switzerland.

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Fair comment mate, not trying to get at you, but you need to understand that there's no such thing as casually knocking up a scenario for these games, let alone a campaign.....It staggers me the speed that some of the guys ( @dragonwynn ) can work at, but we all lead different lives and have different amounts of free time (and patience).

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I completely understand that.  However, no reason to interpret my suggestions or enthusiasms as some sort of command order and get noses out of joint. 

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We do also listen to what you say, but we can only do so many things!  ;)

I know you like bigger maps and the more I work with them the less I like the stock CM:A maps (the villages are just wrong), so I've taken the biggest map in CM:A (the one with the river valley and the east-west highway) extended it to 1.2km x 1.6km, removed all the buildings, walls, flavour objects, vegetation and brush and remodelled most of the contours. 

I'm in the process of rebuilding it based on photos of the Korengal Valley and also doing some experimenting at the same time (I've just spent quite a while discovering that you can't make a diagonal-tile infantry-only ford across CM:A water).

 

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2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

(I've just spent quite a while discovering that you can't make a diagonal-tile infantry-only ford across CM:A water).

That's what I bin talking about - sounds like lotsa fun lol! 

Seriously. my hat is off to all you folks who like doing that sort of thing.

Edited by Erwin

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