JoMac Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Ok, I remember the discussions regarding Vehicle Crews (Stug came into question) that unbuttoned to fire it's MG's...However, I'm not sure how many Crew hits a Vehicle will take before it decides to finally not unbutton anymore...I thought BF changed it where after the 2nd Crew got hit the Vehicle will not unbutton anymore (thou, I can't remember if that was the case). I ask, because in one Game my Stuart III Recce ended up having all its crew Killed from Small Arms (except Driver), because it would always unbutton to engage with the .50 cal...I did try to alleviate the issue a little by giving the Stuart an Armor Arc to prevent unbutton all the time...So, is this happening, because the .50 cal is considered the Main Armament and will always unbutton regardless, even if loosing more then 2 Crew (unless giving an Armor Arc for example) ? Joe 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 If this is the only armament they have then I imagine the game engine will have them unbutton as often as they can to use it. In "real life" that is what they would do I think, maybe with a bit more care.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 The adjustment that was made was *not* to prevent the unbuttoning to use of the external MG it was to make it happen less frequently. But if the vehicle is threatened by near by infantry they will still open up on their own to defend themselves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 If you have a closed StuG and you give a light target order, will the gunner automatically pop up to man the machinegun? Or do you need to order the vehicle to unbutton first? Because if you unbutton a StuG, the commander also opens his hatch, and he has no protection and no machinegun. So he's just a sitting duck in that situation... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) Good question, maybe try it and find out? Does the game also correctly model the late StuG III & IVs with the Hetzer style remote MG? Editor time. On 21/01/2018 at 3:47 PM, wadepm said: If this is the only armament they have then I imagine the game engine will have them unbutton as often as they can to use it. In "real life" that is what they would do I think, maybe with a bit more care.. I disagree.....IMHO they would retire from the battle in the (quite reasonable) expectation of receiving a fresh tank. This would not apply to the Germans in quite the same way it should to the Allies. Edited January 23, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: Good question, maybe try it and find out? Was this for me? Well, I'd test it out myself of course, but I don't have version 4.0 so I was curious how it works in the newest version. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Nothing personal fella, I will test it in v:4, but I'm up to my neck in Sherman minutia at the moment, so I might not post for a bit.....But the simple answer to most CM questions is usually to be found in the editor in my experience (and that limited experience is based on very good advice, received on this forum). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 On 1/22/2018 at 10:17 AM, Bulletpoint said: If you have a closed StuG and you give a light target order, will the gunner automatically pop up to man the machinegun? Or do you need to order the vehicle to unbutton first? Because if you unbutton a StuG, the commander also opens his hatch, and he has no protection and no machinegun. So he's just a sitting duck in that situation... 27 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: <Snip> I will test it in v:4, but I'm up to my neck in Sherman minutia at the moment, so I might not post for a bit..... <Snip> Okay, I just did a quick test in CMFB v2.0 Engine 4, with the StuG IIIG (early) and StuG IIIG (mid). You must order the vehicle to unbutton first to Target Light. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said: Okay, I just did a quick test in CMFB v2.0 Engine 4, with the StuG IIIG (early) and StuG IIIG (mid). You must order the vehicle to unbutton first to Target Light. Ah ok, that's a pity. Would be nice if just the gunner unbuttoned when giving a target light order. Thanks for testing it out. Edited January 24, 2018 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Years ago, a hue and cry was raised within the various sturmartillerie and panzer units due to the deaths of so many crewmen. The Allied armies faced a similar issue. It seems that the men were popping up to shoot their machineguns...and getting killed. The numbers were too great to ignore. Top level coordination took place at the secret conference in...Davos. Stalin, Churchill, Roosevelt, and Halder (Hitler refused to leave his bunker, thinking it was a plot) all agreed to change how their armored ("armoured" on Churchill's copy of the final document) troops behaved. From then on, they would firmly stay buttoned up unless ordered not to. There is NO difference to your troops as to WHO gives the Target Light order. Sometimes it is the heavy hand of the player, sometimes it is the deft touch of the TacAI. If the TacAI wants a unit to Target Light, under the old protocol, they'd pop up, Target Light...and get brained by the enemy. That no longer occurs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 (edited) 35 minutes ago, c3k said: There is NO difference to your troops as to WHO gives the Target Light order. Sometimes it is the heavy hand of the player, sometimes it is the deft touch of the TacAI. If the TacAI wants a unit to Target Light, under the old protocol, they'd pop up, Target Light...and get brained by the enemy. That no longer occurs. As I see it, a better solution would be that only the machinegunner pops up when given a target light order. Prevent the TacAI from making that decision, but keep it for the player. If we wanted the commander to peep out too, we could give the unbutton command. Edited January 25, 2018 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 There's a lot that could go into this. Let's look at an Abrams with TUSK. Beauty, heh? TC has a .50 and the loader has an M240. Should they both be up? If both, then the TC loses the hunter/killer benefit of the dual targeting systems...and the blue force tracker. If just the loader, then we lose the beauty that's the .50. If the "light" weapon is a RWS, then should the TC pop up and reload it automatically? What if he's surrounded by hajis with AK47s? How does the logic suss that out? What if he's in a crowded urban environment with unspotted enemies. It'd be crazy to reload, even with no known enemy. These are quick, dirty, and shallow examples. I'm only doing this to show that there is no easy answer. If you go with the "every hatch on every vehicle should be individually controlled by the player" solution, then what about the AI? Can't hamstring the AI or the TacAI, can we? (Any more than it already is, by its very nature.) Just something to think about. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, c3k said: There's a lot that could go into this. Let's look at an Abrams with TUSK. Beauty, heh? TC has a .50 and the loader has an M240. Should they both be up? If both, then the TC loses the hunter/killer benefit of the dual targeting systems...and the blue force tracker. If just the loader, then we lose the beauty that's the .50. If the "light" weapon is a RWS, then should the TC pop up and reload it automatically? What if he's surrounded by hajis with AK47s? How does the logic suss that out? What if he's in a crowded urban environment with unspotted enemies. It'd be crazy to reload, even with no known enemy. These are quick, dirty, and shallow examples. I'm only doing this to show that there is no easy answer. If you go with the "every hatch on every vehicle should be individually controlled by the player" solution, then what about the AI? Can't hamstring the AI or the TacAI, can we? (Any more than it already is, by its very nature.) Just something to think about. Can't speak about the modern titles, I only play WW2. But in case you have two guys that can man a weapon each, I still think it would make sense to have one of them man the weapon when doing "target light", and both appear when clicking to unbutton. I'm not saying we should have an option for every little hatch that could in theory open. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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