Are Tank secondary weapons ever used?

[Badger73]

3 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

This is a misconception, the MG is usually stowed behind the hatch to keep it out of the way, but the whole cupola that it's mounted on can rotate to allow the commander to fire it from his hatch into any aspect of the tank.

Not always, Ma Duece was fixed-pintle mounted atop the Sherman's turret on some models.  I just can't recall which ones at the moment.

[joethejet]

So, I can potentially arm my tank crew via buddy aid, but from the excellent links you referenced it seems that they won't share what they pick up with anyone other than the other tank crews that might also dismount as, apparently, they only share within the same "team". Is that your understanding?

 

Thanks so much for this info. It is very interesting.

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, joethejet said:

they only share within the same "team". Is that your understanding?  

Correct.  Usually the same platoon.  Basically the same group of units that highlight when clicked on.  Ammo sharing distance is two action spots (A/S).   One open A/S between the two teams. 

[joethejet]

Would that be why my 81mm mortars don't get more rounds when they're empty? I moved a ammo carrier next to one that was empty, but it didn't give it any ammo.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

6 hours ago, Badger73 said:

I just can't recall which ones at the moment.

Off hand I can only think of some of the T-23 turret 76mm versions, these had MG stowage 'horns' on the back of the turret and a series of pintle mounts,.....But even these had a mount that was accessible to the commander from his hatch (if perhaps somewhat awkwardly and assuming the gun was located there at the appropriate time) IIRC.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Badger73]

5 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Off hand I can only think of some of the T-23 turret 76mm versions, these had MG stowage 'horns' on the back of the turret and a series of pintle mounts,.....But even these had a mount that was accessible to the commander from his hatch (if perhaps somewhat awkwardly and assuming the gun was located there at the appropriate time) IIRC.

Right, but not on ring mounts which could be swiveled to face forward from inside the cupola as you originally suggested.  In hindsight, the Sherman tank Cal .50 auxiliary AA capability was not initially designed with enemy ground targets in mind. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Badger73

[c3k]

Agreed: I'm having difficulty finding any WWII Shermans with pintle mounted .50s which could be rotated around to the front of the cupola. Every one I've seen has the pintle welded to the turret top...behind the cupola.

[Thewood1]

Wasn't there a multi-week thread on the .50 cal Sherman mount a few years ago.  I thought the conclusion to that was US Shermans only had the pintle mount.  Some Commonwealth Shermans had modified the mount.  That is the best I can remember.

[J Bennett]

Tanks themselves are a "secondary weapon".   It seems sometimes MG's were fitted to a tank just to discourage infantry assaults.  Consider the machine guns mounted on the rear turret of some Russian tanks. Was there any real way to aim  it? Perhaps a crewman was just supposed to blindly fire a quick burst occasionally in area where infantry might be near.

[MOS:96B2P]

13 hours ago, joethejet said:

Would that be why my 81mm mortars don't get more rounds when they're empty? I moved a ammo carrier next to one that was empty, but it didn't give it any ammo.

If the mortar and ammo carrier are from the same platoon and within ammo sharing distance the carrier should share the ammo.  It may not be obvious that it is being shared.  There are two different areas where the mortar ammo count will be displayed in the user interface depending on the circumstance.  If the ammo belongs to the mortar team the number of rounds will be displayed in both the Unit Information Panel (left panel) and in the Team Information Panel (center panel).  If the mortar team is sharing (getting ammo from another team/carrier) the number of rounds will only be displayed in the Team Information Panel (center panel).  Below are some screen shots of one mortar team sharing with a different mortar team. 

If the mortar team enters a vehicle or supply dump and Acquires  the ammo then the count would show in both panels. 

 

 

[Warts 'n' all]

Excellent explanation. Nail well and truly hit.

[MOS:96B2P]

Just now, Warts 'n' all said:

Excellent explanation. Nail well and truly hit.

Thanks!!! I hope it helps @joethejet.  Or maybe he has something else going on with the mortars .   

[joethejet]

Yeah, it looks like the mortars and the ammo carrier have different HQs. So, another question. These Ammo carriers for the mortars have a bunch of round of MG, bazooka rounds, grenades and M1 ammo, but I guess they won't give that to infantry squads it comes across, only to the mortars? That seems pretty weird. Why do they even have that ammo then?

[A Canadian Cat]

6 hours ago, joethejet said:

..I guess they won't give that to infantry squads it comes across, only to the mortars? That seems pretty weird. Why do they even have that ammo then?

They will not automatically share but you can have teams mount the carrier and use the acquire command to get any of that equipment. Including the mortar team.

Edited January 21, 2018 by IanL

[MG TOW]

I recall seeing squads with no ammo being replenished bullets very slowly maybe 10 rounds or something when positioned next to a truck. I'm sure this occurred. I don't think it works the same way with the heavy stuff or equipment.

 

 

 

 

[c3k]

The replenishment occurs with one "weapon load" at a time.  

[joethejet]

6 hours ago, IanL said:

They will not automatically share but you can have teams mount the carrier and use the acquire command to get any of that equipment. Including the mortar team.

Sorry, I meant ammo "bearer", not carrier, it's just one guy with a bunch of ammo. If he can't share with others, why would you give a mortar team a bunch of rockets and grenades? They shouldn't be needing those!

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On ‎20‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 9:08 AM, Badger73 said:

Right, but not on ring mounts which could be swiveled to face forward from inside the cupola as you originally suggested.  In hindsight, the Sherman tank Cal .50 auxiliary AA capability was not initially designed with enemy ground targets in mind. 

On ‎20‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 1:18 PM, c3k said:

Agreed: I'm having difficulty finding any WWII Shermans with pintle mounted .50s which could be rotated around to the front of the cupola. Every one I've seen has the pintle welded to the turret top...behind the cupola.

You are misunderstanding what you are seeing, that whole circular surround rotates, moving the pintle & MG with it:

Low bustle 75mm turret, note position of pintle mount

Here's another turret of the same spec:

Note the position of the pintle mount in this image.

The same applies to many but not all T-23 turret (76mm) Shermans:

Note identical hatch configuration (but now in the loader's position) with usual pintle arrangement.

If you are seriously interested in Shermans I'm hosting the M3/M4 Medium Tank GB over on Britmodeller, there are some very talented and extremely well informed folks taking part.....Plenty of information to be found on a type that is surprisingly misunderstood given its prevalence.

 

On ‎20‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 4:17 PM, J Bennett said:

Consider the machine guns mounted on the rear turret of some Russian tanks. Was there any real way to aim  it?

Err, yeah.....Through the sight built into the ball mount:

 

Edited January 22, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead

[A Canadian Cat]

16 hours ago, joethejet said:

Sorry, I meant ammo "bearer", not carrier, it's just one guy with a bunch of ammo.

Ah, I see. There is no aquiring between soldiers so there is no way to transfer ammo from one team to another. Mortars and MG teams often have ammo bearer teams. Any of those teams can share with between Mortar and MG crews in the same platoon. In fact the MG and mortar crews will take ammo from their ammo bearer teams first (as long as they are close enough) that way once they have no ammo left they can go back to the truck and acquire more to bring back to the crewed weapon.

 

16 hours ago, joethejet said:

If he can't share with others, why would you give a mortar team a bunch of rockets and grenades? They shouldn't be needing those!

For this I am not totally clear what you mean. Who game the mortar team rockets and grenades? Many teams have a supply of grenades and you can order any team to acquire bazooka rockets but mortar teams do not ever come with bazookas and rounds by default - at least that I am aware of.

[c3k]

3 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

You are misunderstanding what you are seeing, that whole circular surround rotates, moving the pintle & MG with it:

Low bustle 75mm turret, note position of pintle mount

Here's another turret of the same spec:

Note the position of the pintle mount in this image.

The same applies to many but not all T-23 turret (76mm) Shermans:

Note identical hatch configuration (but now in the loader's position) with usual pintle arrangement.

If you are seriously interested in Shermans I'm hosting the M3/M4 Medium Tank GB over on Britmodeller, there are some very talented and extremely well informed folks taking part.....Plenty of information to be found on a type that is surprisingly misunderstood given its prevalence.

 

Err, yeah.....Through the sight built into the ball mount:

 

Nice pix. I'm familiar with the rotating ring. I'm just not sure when they were introduced and on which models. I don't think it was prevalent in WWII. Those casting numbers on the turrets are helpful...but getting timestamps on the photos would be better. Certainly this is something worth digging into.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

The general turret configuration in the first two images is by far the most common on any 75mm Sherman, from the introduction of the type onward.....Things get a bit more complex later in the production run with the introduction of the 76mm equipped turrets and the addition of the true all-round-vision cupola and loader's hatches of various configurations.  Suffice it to say that the ability to fire the .50cal into any aspect should be considered the norm for the 75mm Shermans and pretty much the norm for the 76mms.

Here's a late production T-23 turret with all-round-vision cupola and oval loader's hatch, it's one of the less common later configurations that does not have a rotating pintle mount, rather it has a fixed pintle in the turret centre:

Here's another exception, the high-bustle 75mm turret with all-round-vision cupola & oval loader's hatch:

While it's not apparent in the image this type had a similar fixed pintle.

These types are the exception to the general rule and they are from later in the production run (presumably after it became apparent thet the Luftwaffe was a spent force and killing infantry was easier with HE).

This page will help:  http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/turret_types/turret_types.html

PS - No need to dig.....I have Hunnicutt & many others. 

PPS - Maybe have a look at some of the build threads in the GB I linked to, the minutia of the Sherman (of various configurations) are laid out for all to see in various scales & I'm not even slightly exaggerating the expertise of some of the guys there:

PPPS - If one of the Russian speakers on the site could give a clear explanation of the slogans (apart from 'For Stalin' obviously) on this vehicle it would be very welcome, there is some concern that something may be missing, here's the other side:

Edited January 22, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead

[c3k]

2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

The general turret configuration in the first two images is by far the most common on any 75mm Sherman, from the introduction of the type onward.....Things get a bit more complex later in the production run with the introduction of the 76mm equipped turrets and the addition of the true all-round-vision cupola and loader's hatches of various configurations.  Suffice it to say that the ability to fire the .50cal into any aspect should be considered the norm for the 75mm Shermans and pretty much the norm for the 76mms.

Here's a late production T-23 turret with all-round-vision cupola and oval loader's hatch, it's one of the less common later configurations that does not have a rotating pintle mount, rather it has a fixed pintle in the turret centre:

Here's another exception, the high-bustle 75mm turret with all-round-vision cupola & oval loader's hatch:

While it's not apparent in the image this type had a similar fixed pintle.

These types are the exception to the general rule and they are from later in the production run (presumably after it became apparent thet the Luftwaffe was a spent force and killing infantry was easier with HE).

This page will help:  http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/turret_types/turret_types.html

PS - No need to dig.....I have Hunnicutt & many others. 

PPS - Maybe have a look at some of the build threads in the GB I linked to, the minutia of the Sherman (of various configurations) are laid out for all to see in various scales & I'm not even slightly exaggerating the expertise of some of the guys there:

PPPS - If one of the Russian speakers on the site could give a clear explanation of the slogans (apart from 'For Stalin' obviously) on this vehicle it would be very welcome, there is some concern that something may be missing, here's the other side:

A lot of good info.

I'm going through the Zaloga Sherman book as I type. Gotta double-check all the "pintle welded to roof" vs. "pintle on a rotating ring" assumptions. Sigh.

[joethejet]

6 hours ago, IanL said:

Ah, I see. There is no aquiring between soldiers so there is no way to transfer ammo from one team to another. Mortars and MG teams often have ammo bearer teams. Any of those teams can share with between Mortar and MG crews in the same platoon. In fact the MG and mortar crews will take ammo from their ammo bearer teams first (as long as they are close enough) that way once they have no ammo left they can go back to the truck and acquire more to bring back to the crewed weapon.

 

For this I am not totally clear what you mean. Who game the mortar team rockets and grenades? Many teams have a supply of grenades and you can order any team to acquire bazooka rockets but mortar teams do not ever come with bazookas and rounds by default - at least that I am aware of.

Gee, I probably should have started a new thread for the mortar team. What I meant is that the ammo bearer has bazooka rounds, M1 ammo, MG ammo and grenades as well as mortar rounds (That's one strong dude!) Not sure why the game would give them that extra ammo (I'm playing the intro campaign in CMFB) if it can only be used by the mortar team that it belongs to. Oh well, not a big deal just good to know there is no reason to move the ammo bearer around to the infantry that's low on ammo.

[Pete Wenman]

@joethejet

This is one of the ammo teams from the third mission of the FB training campaign which is where I think you are coming from

At full strength it has 4 men.

75 rounds for each M1 carbine -225 in total

104 rounds for the M7 Garand which in addition has three 66mm rifle AT grenades

Between the four men two hand grenades are also carried

All of the above represent the personal weapons of the 4 man team, and I assume are pretty accurate in terms of real life TOE. (All 4 teams in that scenario are scaled the same)

In addition the team is carrying 40 81mm HE rounds and 4 WP rounds for the mortars.

HTH

P

Edited January 22, 2018 by Pete Wenman

[akd]

The "66mm" rifle grenades are this:

(Actually 57mm)

Or this:

(actual diameter? maybe 66mm)