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28 minutes ago, HerrTom said:

I think I remember Steve saying that SMGs actually have a hard cap on distance to avoid this particular problem. When the effectiveness goes to zero, your units will waste ammunition (easy with SMGs) with little effect.  So they have a hard range cap so SMGs won't fire unless they have a chance of causing damage.  Maybe it's too much damage, though :D 

I remember mentioning in a discuss regarding the effectiveness of SMG's...I said it might be a good idea to increase the range out to 250 meter max...Have the SMG's Full-Effect out to 40 meters, then half the effect from there out to 100 meters, then quarter effect from there out to 200 meters, then any residual suppression out to 250 meters...Anyways, something along those lines. 

Of course, this may mean reducing the ROF, decreasing Aim Accuracy, less Aim time, etc, past the Full-Effect range to get the desired results.

Edited by JoMc67

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Drifter Man,

Would like to commend you for the enormous effort you've put into this most useful weapon effectiveness project. I would like to present some data (unfortunately not covering the Thompson, the Sten or the PPPSh41), depicting the reduction in projectile velocity as a function of distance. As you can see, at 0 meters, the MP44 has over 3X the energy of the MP38/40, over 4x at 100 meters, and over 3X at both 200 and 300 meters. At a glance, I believe this shows exactly why the Germans switched to the MP44 whenever possible. Excerpted from table at link. Offhand, I don't know what the wounding and killing energy requirements are when expressed in joules. Would further note that higher MV and a far better ballistic coefficient than for the MP38/40 and SMGs in general, should yield a flatter trajectory and getter hit probability. 

(Fair Use)

Note: This part of the webpage is only a supplement or an addition to the excellent book: Sturmgewehr, 2004, by Hans-Dieter Handrich and to Peter Senichs book: The German Assault rifle. The book is from 1987, interesting but not quite updated.

http://claus.espeholt.dk/mp44.htm

Energy/Joule:          9mm para MP      U.S. M1 carbine   8mm kurz             7.62x39mm Rus.   5.56mm Nato        7.62mm Nato       8x57JS / sS - K98k
     0 meter 556 1324 1877 1991 1867 3292 3648
100 meters 399 848 1328 1417 1503 2763 3190
200 meters 286 541 919 1009 1204 2291 2791
300 meters 205 377 634 718 954 1882 2428

The carbine didn't have much power beyond 100 - 200 m, so it couldn't be used as a "stormrifle" - only as a weapon for personal defence. 

Regards,

John Kettler

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6 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

 On the other hand, the SMGs keep their high firepower - same level as rifles at 80-120 m - out to their maximum range, where they suddenly stop.

Whatever the weapon is and however it works, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that it's power will decrease with distance until almost zero, rather than staying high and then ending abruptly? Also, wouldn't it be reasonable that fewer kills should be achieved per round fired as distance increases? Neither of this applies to SMGs in CMBN.

SMG accuracy fails at 200m because of bullet drop, not because of dispersion increase. At 200m you perfectly hit targets, at 250m your bullets are completely out of a target vertical size. It is like .22lr. You get 0,25 moa at 50m but can't hit anything at 200m. (Unless you use scope, ballistic calculator and distance is known)

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How come the Thompson data stops at around 160m, whereas the other SMGs continue until almost 200m? Sorry if this has been explained before, I tried reading back in the thread and could not find the answer there...

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19 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Would like to commend you for the enormous effort you've put into this most useful weapon effectiveness project. I would like to present some data (unfortunately not covering the Thompson, the Sten or the PPPSh41), depicting the reduction in projectile velocity as a function of distance. As you can see, at 0 meters, the MP44 has over 3X the energy of the MP38/40, over 4x at 100 meters, and over 3X at both 200 and 300 meters. At a glance, I believe this shows exactly why the Germans switched to the MP44 whenever possible. Excerpted from table at link. Offhand, I don't know what the wounding and killing energy requirements are when expressed in joules. Would further note that higher MV and a far better ballistic coefficient than for the MP38/40 and SMGs in general, should yield a flatter trajectory and getter hit probability. 

Thanks. Without really knowing much about guns, I'm afraid I can't contribute much more to the debate, other than measuring parameters in the game. I get the point that kinetic energy is good because it makes aiming easier and hits more effective. There will be other effect though, like how much the hit probability is increased by firing a burst, and the ability of the soldier to control the weapon and maintain steady aim. I suspect that there are other considerations than kinetic energy alone, otherwise the Germans would want to switch to 88mm PaK 43 for every soldier wherever possible :)

13 hours ago, DMS said:

SMG accuracy fails at 200m because of bullet drop, not because of dispersion increase. At 200m you perfectly hit targets, at 250m your bullets are completely out of a target vertical size. It is like .22lr. You get 0,25 moa at 50m but can't hit anything at 200m. (Unless you use scope, ballistic calculator and distance is known)

OK, I think I get it - my commonsense expectation how weapon firepower changes with distance may not apply to SMGs.

11 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

How come the Thompson data stops at around 160m, whereas the other SMGs continue until almost 200m? Sorry if this has been explained before, I tried reading back in the thread and could not find the answer there...

Actually I didn't mention it. Thompson has a shorter range in the game. Troops with Thompsons will engage enemy within a target arc at ca 170 m but no farther than that. At least they didn't for me.

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1 hour ago, Drifter Man said:
13 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

How come the Thompson data stops at around 160m, whereas the other SMGs continue until almost 200m? Sorry if this has been explained before, I tried reading back in the thread and could not find the answer there...

Actually I didn't mention it. Thompson has a shorter range in the game. Troops with Thompsons will engage enemy within a target arc at ca 170 m but no farther than that. At least they didn't for me.

Thanks. Just learnt something new then. I just assumed all SMGs were capped at exactly 200m, without ever really testing it out :)

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On January 7, 2018 at 1:16 PM, HerrTom said:

If you look at automatic fire in CM, it pretty much follows a laser.

Not necessarily. Back in the early days of BfN, I noticed that MG42s fired from the shoulder would show the bullet trajectory climbing as the burst lasted. I haven't noticed this recently, so it may have been subsequently altered.

Michael

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19 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

Actually I didn't mention it. Thompson has a shorter range in the game. Troops with Thompsons will engage enemy within a target arc at ca 170 m but no farther than that. At least they didn't for me.

 

17 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Thanks. Just learnt something new then. I just assumed all SMGs were capped at exactly 200m, without ever really testing it out :)

Well, at some point the hard coded range for the US Thompson was changed to 160 meters.  I went back and looked at my notes.  I tested and posted a topic on hard coded SMG ranges in September 2015.  At that time the hard coded range for a Thompson was 200 meters.  

I just re-tested the Thompson SMG in CMFB v2.0 Engine 4 and in CMBN v4.0 Engine 4.  In both cases the hard coded range is now 160 meters.  

@Bulletpoint if you are still on Engine 3 and have time maybe test the Thompson with an area Target order and see what the range limit is.  Maybe it was a 4.0 Engine change?

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10 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

@Bulletpoint if you are still on Engine 3 and have time maybe test the Thompson with an area Target order and see what the range limit is.  Maybe it was a 4.0 Engine change?

Just did a bit of fast and loose testing with a US scout team, and found that only their marksman fires at 199m distance. At 167m distance, one of the two Thompsons fires (the leader) but the other guy holds fire. At 159m, both Thompsons fire.

This is all doing area fire, using v. 3.12.

So, it seems to not be a feature of the 4.0 patch.

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@Bulletpoint Okay, thanks.  I'm not an SMG grog so don't really have a strong opinion on this but it is something to be aware of.  I did notice that while the Thompson now has a 160 meter hard coded range limit the M3 grease gun was still hard coded to 200 meters.     

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2 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

Speaking of which, how do I get my hands on the M3 grease gun in CMBN? I think I've seen it somewhere but now I can't find any unit using it.

Under specialist teams the three man scout team sometimes has one.     

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13 minutes ago, Drifter Man said:

I see... it must be a rare issue, I put about 20 scout teams on the map and all had Thompsons.

Did you change the quality settings on the left side in the editor?  Typical, excellent etc.  I think this may effect the weapons.  I don't remember how I had mine set. 

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3 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Did you change the quality settings on the left side in the editor?  Typical, excellent etc.  I think this may effect the weapons.  I don't remember how I had mine set. 

I tried typical, poor and excellent, and also June and September 1944. I have a feeling that I've seen it with an AT gun crew or in a vehicle but can't remember where. Maybe it is more common in CMFI or CMFB?

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13 minutes ago, Drifter Man said:

I tried typical, poor and excellent, and also June and September 1944. I have a feeling that I've seen it with an AT gun crew or in a vehicle but can't remember where. Maybe it is more common in CMFI or CMFB?

Okay, I just did it in CMFB on the second attempt.  Three man scout team. 1 x M1, 1 x M3 Grease Gun and 1 x Thompson.  January 1945.  Typical.  So you are probably right that it is more common in CMFB.    

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The M3 Grease gun is only used by vehicle crews in the Normandy game. In Final Blitzkrieg it starts getting used by some infantry units (scouts, paratroopers).

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17 hours ago, Josey Wales said:

Big respect to you @Drifter Manfor taking the time to put this together. I think you have helped uncover further the attention to detail that the designers have put into this game. 

Thanks, and I can respond in kind that I enjoyed your AAR and other CM videos - excellent work.

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On 1/9/2018 at 10:23 PM, Michael Emrys said:

Not necessarily. Back in the early days of BfN, I noticed that MG42s fired from the shoulder would show the bullet trajectory climbing as the burst lasted. I haven't noticed this recently, so it may have been subsequently altered.

Michael

*Very* minor gripe in the wider scheme of things but LMGs firing from the shoulder always irked me a bit. I suppose we just assume the landser is either firing from the hip

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or something like this.... 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRvkpgpm9QjTjubs4fMsXW

Edited by LongLeftFlank

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I noticed that German squads given an Assault command very often seem to lead with the LMG unit, which sort of seems wrong,.....Given the short tactical bounds it's not a biggy, but it does mean the LMG will always be in an uncertain position if/when he needs to start firing.  :unsure:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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4 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I noticed that German squads given an Assault command very often seem to lead with the LMG unit, which sort of seems wrong,.....Given the short tactical bounds it's not a biggy, but it does mean the LMG will always be in an uncertain position if/when he needs to start firing.  :unsure:

Agreed, although a SEAL friend of mine noted that in the Rung Sat patrols would stick one of the two Stoner weapons in the point element. This let them envelop the VC if they let it go past to ambush the main body. While giving a counterfire punch if the point gets hit, to fix the ambushers while the main force flanked.

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