Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Looking at a quick battle in CMFI, and while comparing tank battalions I see that the Churchill III and IV are valued at about 280 points each and the Sherman III & V's are only 190 points. (both set to equal parameters, Veteran etc...). Just wondering, do you feel two Churchill's are worth 3 Sherman's in an AT role? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, I did a test.

I setup 15 MkIV's against 5 Sherman 1"s, 5 Sherman V's and 5 Churchill IV's on a flat open large map.

The armor of the Churchill's were able to withstand the MkIV's 75's causing several ricochets of the hull. Not so much the turret. Also, instead of being knocked out, the crew after receiving several casualties abandoned the Churchill's. The Sherman's were knocked out before the crew could abandon. 

The Churchill's 57mm seemed to be equal to the Sherman's 75.

In the end there was a lone Churchill left. It may have been because he was out of LOS a lot. (He kept reversing out of trouble)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect Churchills should have much better survivability over shermans.  And the 57mm is high velocity.  I notice Churchills w 75mm guns are very poor at anti-tank.  The sherman is much faster at least.  And I suspect way cheaper to build & maintain.  Not that this helps the poor crews much.

 

Thanks for doing this, interesting stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What @danfrodo said: The kicker, for an anti tank role, is the Churchill's higher survivability. The 57mm gun is pretty good against enemy tanks and the Churchill tank can take more of a beating than the Sherman can.

The test you ran has a strong tendency to show strong outcomes because one event can have a cascading effect: once one side starts loosing the losses get worse. They are fun and enjoy running them - if you really want more informative stats create separate lines and fight one on one. When I make testing lanes I usually use terrain (hills 5m - 7m high) to separate the lanes and not just walls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Churchills seem very poor tanks in my experience, but I've only played them in campaigns where of course they are up against Panthers and 75mm PaKs. Churchills seem slow, spot poorly, and quite fragile. certainly I haven't seen them survive anything a Sherman couldn't have survived. The only Churchill worth the name "heavy tank" seems to be the mark VII.

In short, I agree. I don't see why they should be more expensive than Shermans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh man no. I had an AAR way back where a Churchill tank survived 20 plus hits from a stug. The damn things will not die. No Sherman tank could do that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Churchills were famous for getting where other tanks couldn't. All those little bogies did help. MMP, etc. 

As well, if you're comparing Churchills to Shermans and how they survive Jagdtiger 128mm hits, well, they're both so over-matched it doesn't matter. The Panther's 75L70 gun cuts through them both like a hot knife through butter, especially at the ranges in game (and in combat). Where the Churchill beats the Sherman is survivability against other than 75L70. Against 75L48 and L43, it does better. 50mm? Far better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, IanL said:

Oh man no. I had an AAR way back where a Churchill tank survived 20 plus hits from a stug. The damn things will not die. No Sherman tank could do that.

Which kind of StuG (can't remember if they all use the same gun in CMBN), and at what range? And what kind of Churchill? The VII is strong.

Edited by Bulletpoint

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK found it. Around page 6 I start talking about the trouble I am having dealing with Churchill tanks:

This video shows the uber Churchill shrugging off 22 hits (or at leas some of the 22):

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Which kind of StuG (can't remember if they all use the same gun in CMBN), and at what range? And what kind of Churchill? The VII is strong.

Even the earlier marks can resist 75mm L48 on their front hulls at most ranges and on their front turrets and sides at longer ranges. In one battle I had 3 rounds bounce off the side of a Churchill MkIV's turret. After the mission I discovered the rounds came from a StuGIII (75mm L48) fired at around 900 metres. While this is probably longer than typical tank engagement ranges in CMBN I'm positive that a Sherman would have been toast in that situation. 

Also, bare in mind that the 6lber armed Churchills in Normandy can penetrate Tigers frontally with APDS rounds at ranges of over 1000 yards.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, black_prince said:

Even the earlier marks can resist 75mm L48 on their front hulls at most ranges and on their front turrets and sides at longer ranges. In one battle I had 3 rounds bounce off the side of a Churchill MkIV's turret. After the mission I discovered the rounds came from a StuGIII (75mm L48) fired at around 900 metres. While this is probably longer than typical tank engagement ranges in CMBN I'm positive that a Sherman would have been toast in that situation. 

Also, bare in mind that the 6lber armed Churchills in Normandy can penetrate Tigers frontally with APDS rounds at ranges of over 1000 yards.

 

I guess I have just never seen the churchills in good matchups then. My experience with them is only from playing the Scottish Corridor campaign (twice). It pits the Churchills against Panthers and Tigers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Thewood1 said:

Interesting video.  But what the heck is going on with the trees constantly changing color?

Wow, I never really paid much attention to that. I have no idea, other than it was my old computer with my old graphics card. I.e. just a bit better than crappy. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×