C2 & Information Sharing (REDUX)

[LukeFF]

7 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

Ok, so you are saying in just 15 minutes both Friendly Battalion HQs know where the German Armor is...I mean, WOW !..That is pretty Freaking quick.

This means, both Battalion HQ's can technically act, literally, against that Armor Threat on turn 16...WOW !..I say.

In my mind, I always think of a CM Turn as equally 2 minutes of RL, and still, that would mean only 30 minutes before your Battalions HQ's can react.

Well, at least CM does have a C&C system in place...That counts for something.

LoL, ok.  That's the benefit to having radios - faster communication. This isn't the Napoleonic Wars with messengers on horseback.

[Freyberg]

That was very very interesting.

This seems extremely realistic to me - 15 minutes doesn't seem too quick (you'd assume this was something they would have wanted to know). I figured CM would be sophisticated and realistic in C2, but to see it in action in such a detailed way is cool.

I've noticed that radios go in and out of communication - it's a cool feature.

[Oliver_88]

Original thread was an interesting read, and its great to now see the accompanying images, thanks!

Question for anyone that knows (otherwise might try out myself later should I have time to) in the image I've quoted below B Company HQ are in radio contact with 1 Platoon HQ and so having been reported about 1 Platoons current positions has contact markers for them. Now then suppose 1 Platoon then moves North into the woods and reports their new position. So obviously B Company HQ are going to see an new set of contact markers for 1 Platoon in those woods, but my question is that because they now know 1 Platoon are not in the positions previously reported but now at the new positions, are they going to forget the old position and remove those contact markers for them? Depending on answer have an further query.

11 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

 

Would be interesting to know who an unit thought some contact marker was, for example say an HQ having an contact marker and on seeing that the unit believes thats 1 Section thinking holy defecation 1 Section are nowhere near that and there must be some break in C2 somewhere to find.

[A Canadian Cat]

18 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

PS - Thank you for the cool floating icons mod. 

I admit to enjoying seeing them in posts. Glad you like them.

[MOS:96B2P]

11 hours ago, Oliver_88 said:

<Snip> suppose 1 Platoon then moves North into the woods and reports their new position. So obviously B Company HQ are going to see an new set of contact markers for 1 Platoon in those woods, but my question is that because they now know 1 Platoon are not in the positions previously reported but now at the new positions, are they going to forget the old position and remove those contact markers for them? <Snip>

Interesting question and the answer depends on the Skill level and if your looking at the screen during the playback phase or orders phase. During the orders phase for all skill levels you will see all friendly units as confirmed friendly contact icons.  However during the playback phase things change between Iron and the other skill levels.  On Iron, during playback only, friendly dispositions, in the same battalion, are not reported vertically or horizontally.  A team must observe (or hear) for itself the friendly unit, in the same battalion, to obtain updated location information.  After it obtains updated contacts the old contacts are replaced.  The location of a unit not in the same battalion is reported as we saw when the XO made contact with the 4th Bn. Recon team.  I don't think most players pay any attention to the Iron playback floating icon situation they just go straight to the orders phase where everything is visible and start issuing orders.  I know this surprised me and seems a bit odd but to the best I can tell this is how it works.  Some screenshots of it are below.   

1st Platoon is ordered north into the woods.  

Several minutes after 1st Platoon completed its move into the woods and had re-established radio C2 with B Company HQ, B Co. still showed 1st Platoon in 1st Platoon's Setup positions.  I then had the XO drive to 1st Platoons new location and physically spot 1st Platoon units.  The XO then returned to the Bravo Co. HQ about 11 minutes after 1st Platoon moved.  

The friendly contacts within the same battalion were not shared vertically or horizontally.  The contacts are only obtained by actually spotting (or hearing) the friendly, same battalion, unit. 

 

 

 

 

[DougPhresh]

Just musing but does that mean recce has to be integrated vertically? That is to say, organic recce teams will always be better than specialized recce from one of the recce formations?

I.E is it better to have three grunts and a pair of binoculars than a squadron of armoured cars with radios, as far as Battalion HQ is concerned?

[MOS:96B2P]

4 minutes ago, DougPhresh said:

Just musing but does that mean recce has to be integrated vertically? That is to say, organic recce teams will always be better than specialized recce from one of the recce formations?

I.E is it better to have three grunts and a pair of binoculars than a squadron of armoured cars with radios, as far as Battalion HQ is concerned?

The last three screenshots where I was answering @Oliver_88 is just for Iron playback phase and only involves friendly units.  So unless you are using supplemental in-house spotting/C2 rules it doesn't have much (if any?) practical affect. 

Having any unit integrated into your combat command will facilitate C2 and the distribution of OpFor spotting information throughout the command.  The use of liaisons (with radio C2) will do much the same for any "independent" units that you have.  Or having the highest HQ teams in horizontal information sharing distance of each other (4 action spots), creating an information bridge between the two separate chain of command units.      

[Glubokii Boy]

But in Dough Phresh example above._.

What if you have an infantry battalion with a single squadron\ platoon of armoured cars from another formation (recon battalion ) in support   to provide some mobile recon._.

Who would they report to ? They have no higher hq on the map._.

They would need to be in voice\los of some member of the main infantry battalion to be able to share their info.._no ?

Making their mobility and radios pretty useless\limitid.._

 

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by RepsolCBR

[DougPhresh]

5 minutes ago, RepsolCBR said:

But in Dough Phresh example above._.

What if you have an infantry battalion with a single squadron\ platoon of armoured cars from another formation (recon battalion ) in support   to provide some mobile recon._.

Who would they report to ? They have no higher hq on the map._.

They would need to be in voice\los of some member of the main infantry battalion to be able to share their info.._no ?

Making their mobility and radios pretty useless\limitid.._

 

 

That's exactly what I was thinking! I almost always bring along some armoured cars on Battalion level engagements but never include the recce Company or Battalion HQ. I assumed that they would be on the same radio net as the infantry Battalion, but if that's not the case I'm not sure how to use them.

[Glubokii Boy]

3 minutes ago, DougPhresh said:

 I assumed that they would be on the same radio net as the infantry Battalion, but if that's not the case I'm not sure how to use them.

I guess IRL they would be but it seems like you will need to keep the company hq in the game._.To have them share the info

If this is the case then it will be something for scenario designers to keep in mind.._

 

[MOS:96B2P]

49 minutes ago, RepsolCBR said:

Who would they report to ? They have no higher hq on the map._.

They would need to be in voice\los of some member of the main infantry battalion to be able to share their info.._no ?

Making their mobility and radios pretty useless\limitid.._

 

41 minutes ago, DougPhresh said:

 I assumed that they would be on the same radio net as the infantry Battalion, but if that's not the case I'm not sure how to use them.

If they are an independent formation (outside the battalion TOE) the liaison system could be used.  Then their radios would work as intended within their unit collecting intelligence and radioing it to their liaison who is in the same (or within 4 action spots) TOC as the battalion commander.  That would be the "information bridge".  Up above I was saying to make sure the liaison has a radio to receive information from his recon unit so he can then share it with the Bn. commander.  (Not all XO units have a radio.)  Then of course the liaison can send contacts that he gets from the Bn. out to his recon buddies. Single recon vehicle purchases of course can go straight into the main Bn TOE and then it is vertical C2.     

[DougPhresh]

So to have a recce troop working as recce, I need to bring along the squadron HQ?

[Michael Emrys]

43 minutes ago, DougPhresh said:

So to have a recce troop working as recce, I need to bring along the squadron HQ?

Wouldn't if be sufficient to have the Liaison/XO guy within contact distance of the senior HQ he is liaising with, even if it is a troop HQ and not the squadron?

Michael

[Oliver_88]

56 minutes ago, DougPhresh said:

So to have a recce troop working as recce, I need to bring along the squadron HQ?

Or (assuming I understand the question and answer too) you can just leave one radio equipped recce troop vehicle with someone from the infantry battalion.

For example say you have an recce troop of two staghounds and one humber supporting an infantry company, you leave the humber with anyone from the infantry company, the two staghounds go on an recce, when stationary the staghounds are going to radio back to the humber what they have seen (using verticle coms), the humber tells the nearby infantry unit what it now knows (using horizontal coms).

Edited November 26, 2017 by Oliver_88

[DougPhresh]

Very workable solutions, my problem is that I would prefer:
1) Deploy all troop recce vehicles, they radio on the Battalion net of the largest unit in the scenario.
2) Deploy troop recce vehicles, they radio to their squadron HQ, which is sitting in the same CP as the Battalion. (Less ideal)

3) Deploy some recce vehicles, but leave the troop HQ vehicle behind. (Least ideal)

I'd rather not leave a perfectly good AFV behind just to be a radio relay.

[Oliver_88]

3 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Interesting question and the answer depends on the Skill level and if your looking at the screen during the playback phase or orders phase. During the orders phase for all skill levels you will see all friendly units as confirmed friendly contact icons.  However during the playback phase things change between Iron and the other skill levels.  On Iron, during playback only, friendly dispositions, in the same battalion, are not reported vertically or horizontally.  A team must observe (or hear) for itself the friendly unit, in the same battalion, to obtain updated location information.  After it obtains updated contacts the old contacts are replaced.  The location of a unit not in the same battalion is reported as we saw when the XO made contact with the 4th Bn. Recon team.  I don't think most players pay any attention to the Iron playback floating icon situation they just go straight to the orders phase where everything is visible and start issuing orders.  I know this surprised me and seems a bit odd but to the best I can tell this is how it works.  Some screenshots of it are below.   

1st Platoon is ordered north into the woods.  

Several minutes after 1st Platoon completed its move into the woods and had re-established radio C2 with B Company HQ, B Co. still showed 1st Platoon in 1st Platoon's Setup positions.  I then had the XO drive to 1st Platoons new location and physically spot 1st Platoon units.  The XO then returned to the Bravo Co. HQ about 11 minutes after 1st Platoon moved.  

The friendly contacts within the same battalion were not shared vertically or horizontally.  The contacts are only obtained by actually spotting (or hearing) the friendly, same battalion, unit. 

 

 

 

 

thanks for the answer, was aware about the variation between iron and others about friendly spotting and so question was rather just about in iron mode, an tad confusing heh may have to go ahead and try to get an proper understanding anyway

so for example an company headquarters will only end up knowing the position for one of its platoons sections once it gets eyes on that section on its own, does not matter that the company headquarters is in any type communications with anyone else in that platoon which has seen that section, but another company headquarters from an entirely different battalion can end up knowing the position for that exact same section from those people and not have to get eyes on itself, does this other company headquarters also erase/replace their contact markers

[MOS:96B2P]

25 minutes ago, DougPhresh said:

I'd rather not leave a perfectly good AFV behind just to be a radio relay.

You could also have a team with a radio (probably some type of vehicle) from the battalion go with the recon unit.  Your liaison would be forward deployed and would have a greater chance of becoming a casualty but it would keep more AFVs in the fight. 

[Oliver_88]

just about to say that, or vice versa heh

[MOS:96B2P]

6 minutes ago, Oliver_88 said:

so for example an company headquarters will only end up knowing the position for one of its platoons sections once it gets eyes on that section on its own, does not matter that the company headquarters is in any type communications with anyone else in that platoon which has seen that section, but another company headquarters from an entirely different battalion can end up knowing the position for that exact same section from those people and not have to get eyes on itself, does this other company headquarters also erase/replace their contact markers

Correct and yes the contact markers that the other company HQ sees will be replaced.  This shows only during Iron playback with the other company HQ selected.  If you have no unit selected you get your big picture view of all known contacts again.  In this big picture view a different unit, that does not have the updated contact location, may still have the old tentative contact at the former location.   I think I have heard these referred to as ghost contacts.  When there are a lot a units on the map with lots of different contact icons received at different times.  It can make an area of the map look cluttered with several contacts when in fact there are only one or two actual units.        

[Oliver_88]

2 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Correct and yes the contact markers that the other company HQ sees will be replaced.  This shows only during Iron playback with the other company HQ selected.  If you have no unit selected you get your big picture view of all known contacts again.  In this big picture view a different unit, that does not have the updated contact location, may still have the old tentative contact at the former location.   I think I have heard these referred to as ghost contacts.  When there are a lot a units on the map with lots of different contact icons received at different times.  It can make an area of the map look cluttered with several contacts when in fact there are only one or two actual units.        

Yeah I read that some people liked to use iron because they could get an sense upon what the section knows about the battle, but when I first tried the mode did seem somewhat cluttered and I could not make sense upon what I was seeing, so not used since, but think could be useful if I can understand it which is why I am interested in knowing this. I've just been mucking about with it right now, and you stated it surprised you and seemed odd, and well am going to echo that

I've made an dead simple map (my first try with scenario editor too ha) with an large wall like terrain elevation going down right down the middle, this terrain elevation stops near the north to make an "gateway" between the two sides, on the left side I have B Company HQ, 1 Platoon HQ, and 2 Section, on the right side I have 3 Section. So everyone is in the same company. B Company HQ, 1 Platoon HQ and 2 Section cannot see 3 Section.

I ran 2 Section through the "gateway" and next to 3 Section. 3 Section shortly received contact markers for B Company HQ and 1 Platoon HQ. I ran 2 Section back through the "gateway" to Voice C2 with 1 Platoon HQ and yep 1 Platoon HQ then had contact markers for 3 Section. Also to note was that 1 Platoon HQ was in Radio C2 with B Company HQ whom shortly later also had contact markers for 3 Section too. So at this point everyone knows where each other are and seemed to show that friendly dispositions could be passed within the Battalion. However I then repeated this process after having moved 3 Section to an new position. I must have ran for about 15 turns and 1 Platoon HQ never received contact markers for 3 Sections new position, just the old one. So kinda seemed like they would provide information about friendly dispositions between units within the battalion, though just the first report would be accepted, after that they would disregard any reports and only trust what they see.

Might download some fraps so I can take screenshots at some time.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Oliver_88

[MOS:96B2P]

10 hours ago, Oliver_88 said:

I must have ran for about 15 turns and 1 Platoon HQ never received contact markers for 3 Sections new position, just the old one. So kinda seemed like they would provide information about friendly dispositions between units within the battalion, though just the first report would be accepted, after that they would disregard any reports and only trust what they see.  

I think they may have designed it that way for Real Time play.  4.0 Engine Manual page 32 under Iron explains what we are seeing.  However I did not understand that it also prohibited the vertical reporting and horizontal sharing of friendly information within the battalion.  Always learning with this game.     

[Oliver_88]

Scratch that I just noticed that they are not disregarding everything about later information. Each time I am sending 2 Section to 1 Platoon HQ to vertical report about 3 Sections new position although the location of the contact is not updating, the age of the contact is updating heh. And then same thing with 1 Platoon HQ vertical reporting over radio to B Company HQ.  So some vertical reporting and horizontal sharing of friendly information within the battalion does seem to be going on from what I can see. And also put down another Company HQ and Platoon HQ, from another battalion, and other than the information being shared horizontally by 2 Section seems no different.

[MOS:96B2P]

4 minutes ago, Oliver_88 said:

 although the location of the contact is not updating, the age of the contact is updating 

Yep, I got the same thing.  All tentative contacts fade as they get older.  If they are updated they will become brighter and then begin to fade again.  I've never tested it but they probably fade away until they disappear entirely if not updated.  

[Pete Wenman]

Just to reiterate the excellent info provided here by @MOS:96B2P and to again illustrate how sophisticated the game radio net is I've attached a simple scenario for FB based on the  Stoumont master map. This is a massive, resource heavy map, so some systems may struggle with it, but it shows again how critical it is to maintain good C2, both horizontal and vertical and the impact it can have on a very large map.

If you fancy giving it a whirl, play as US against the AI, on elite. This will clearly show the flow of info through the radio net. Add a short target arc to the M8 to prevent it firing and push the BRB. As each unit gains a  ? contact marker, click on the next unit and await it too gaining the ? contact, and so on.

The situation is that a M8 scout car, from 1st section 3 Plt A Troop, is observing in the direction of Cheneux. It is some 3k forward  from the 1st Infantry Bttn HQ which has a radio mounted jeep also from  1st section 3 Plt A Troop  adjacent to it.

Timings for the playthrough I noted as follows. 

Game start at 30.00

29.52 (so after eight seconds) the M8 gets  a ? contact on an enemy unit 1.6k away across the valley.

29.03 The radio mounted jeep from 1st section 3 Plt A Troop receives a report and gains a ? contact marker for the enemy unit, despite being out of LOS and over 3k away from it

28.56 The M8 gets a solid ID on a 251/1 halftrack and passengers.

28.53 1st Inf Bttn HQ gains a ? contact marker, as the report from the M8 is passed horizontally to it from the adjacent cavalry jeep.

26.49 A Co HQ (1st Inf Bttn) gains a ? contact marker for the halftrack as the infantry battalion HQ now passes the info down the battalion radio net. (A Co is approx 1k forward from Bttn HQ)

26.24 1st Plt A Co receives the contact report via A Co HQ (1st Plt HQ being some 200m from Co HQ, but out of LOS from it.)

25.42 1st platoon shouts details of the contact to 1st squad in a nearby house.

So in just under 5 minutes the contact report has gone up the cavalry net, been shared with the Inf Bttn HQ and been passed back down the infantry net to all units in C2 for that net. From a real world perspective this is perhaps a little fast but not unrealistically so for trained and competent troops.

If nothing else it shows the clear advantage that a working radio net provides. If the radios are not present the passage of info will rely on runners, liaison units and self spotting. If this was the initial part of an actual game the M8 could report on all it sees and enable the infantry bttn to share all it's sighting info, denying the German player a degree of surprise he may otherwise assume he has.

Just my ramblings 

 

P

 

 

 

 

Stoumont Master Map recon.btt

Edited November 27, 2017 by Pete Wenman

[MOS:96B2P]

24 minutes ago, Pete Wenman said:

If you fancy giving it a whirl, play as US against the AI, on elite. This will clearly show the flow of info through the radio net. Add a short target arc to the M8 to prevent it firing and push the BRB. As each unit gains a  ? contact marker, click on the next unit and await it too gaining the ? contact, and so on.

The situation is that a M8 scout car, from 1st section 3 Plt A Troop, is observing in the direction of Cheneux. It is some 3k forward  from the 1st Infantry Bttn HQ which has a radio mounted jeep also from  1st section 3 Plt A Troop  adjacent to it.

+1  Thanks for posting this.  I wish I could edit the opening post and make a direct link to this post.  This is one of the best examples of Combat Mission C2 at work I have seen.  Very cool.   I did it on Iron.  Can I drop the Target Arc now?