Buddy Aid

[Frenchy56]

6 hours ago, Pelican Pal said:

Close combat would likely change that equation - but CM doesn't do the greatest job of that regardless of how weapons fire.

Generally, the TacAI is abysmal at anything that includes reacting to fire if it finds itself out of cover.

If you're lucky they will quickly get "pinned" and hit the deck fast. If you're not so lucky they will keep running toward their next waypoint at all costs.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Frenchy56

[LukeFF]

On 9/23/2019 at 8:52 AM, RockinHarry said:

My only guess would be not allow taking SMG´s for "balancing" reasons since at close ranges these are the most deadly firearms. Got to watch out for any possible Sturmgewehr 44 restrictions as well.

That has nothing to do with it. 

[RockinHarry]

6 hours ago, LukeFF said:

That has nothing to do with it. 

thanks, good to know. Anyway, it´s least of my concerns regarding buddy aid.

[MOS:96B2P]

I just became aware of the below excellent video by @Hapless (Usually Hapless on U-Tube).  Explains Buddy Aid very well. 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by MOS:96B2P

[Sgt.Squarehead]

@Hapless  The game doesn't care about dead vs. wounded casualties or account for them in VPs, but in a campaign it can become much more important (depending on the campaign script).

 

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Hapless]

Not going to lie, I'm not that familiar with the campaign scripting stuff. I was under the impression that it made no difference though: any wound significant enough to incapacitate a pixeltruppen means he gets evacauted to the rear and doesn't come back within the time frame of a CM campaign, with replacements coming from a different source.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

It was my understanding that 'Wounded' units returned.....I could well be wrong though. 

I've been trying to work up a campaign that both works how I expect it to and that I'm satisfied with from a creative perspective, ever since I started this game.....Still working on it! 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Erwin]

While it's hard to determine 100% what happens in the game, since some campaigns feature missions that take place immediately after each other, it would be odd if WIA returned immediately.  My sense is that WIA never return and also heavily damaged vehicles may also not return.  That's the only explanation I can think of why the expected (but beat up) armor in "Highland Games" campaign did not return in a later mission.

[BornGinger]

2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I've been trying to work up a campaign that both works how I expect it to and that I'm satisfied with ...Still working on it!

A campaign for which game and since when have you been working on it? I'm pretty sure that you sometimes have felt a bit fed up with it and had a break or two which turned out to be longer than you planned.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

6 hours ago, BornGinger said:

A campaign for which game and since when have you been working on it?

All of them (the earliest being for CM:A) and pretty much since I got the games.....I like messing in the editor, but I'm rarely fully satisfied with what I make. 

Even now after several years at it, CM still mystifies me in many ways.....There are so many things I just don't fully understand!

Edited February 1, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[chuckdyke]

I read somewhere that 25% of the wounded could succumb to their injuries. Yes, this was mentioned to in the video. He didn't address or it affected combat stress or combat shock. Splitting a squad up influences combat stress or shock. No sense to do buddy aid if you have not secured the terrain.  

Edited February 1, 2021 by chuckdyke

[Erwin]

11 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Splitting a squad up influences combat stress or shock.

Unless it's been changed by an update one issue is that if one team experiences some sort of shock, the other team(s) experience the same negative attributes - regardless of how far away and out of contact they are from the team that actually got hit.  

[Pelican Pal]

34 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Unless it's been changed by an update one issue is that if one team experiences some sort of shock, the other team(s) experience the same negative attributes - regardless of how far away and out of contact they are from the team that actually got hit.  

There are two parts (well really three) parts to morale

Formation: This is what you are talking about. As a formation takes losses they will become more brittle and high casualties over a short time has a shock value.

Element: Any given squad has its own internal morale. This is calculated per-man (each man has his own morale) and the squad morale is the averaged morale of each man in the squad. Splitting a squad means that you get two separate elements with their own internal morale. Because the elements are smaller its easier for them to take a morale hit and I also think there is a C2 hit for the element without the SL.

[chuckdyke]

6 hours ago, Erwin said:

Unless it's been changed by an update one issue is that if one team experiences some sort of shock, the other team(s) experience the same negative attributes - regardless of how far away and out of contact they are from the team that actually got hit.  

Read the comment of @Pelican Pal The squad suffers a casualty; the squad becomes at best cautious. Now split the squad in its 2 or 3 fire teams. Often only 1 fire team is affected the other one or two are not. Reunite them again once the casualty has been taken care off, often but not always the squad is OK. I find it a useful exercise if it can be done after securing the area.

[FlemFire]

On 9/29/2019 at 5:52 AM, Frenchy56 said:

Generally, the TacAI is abysmal at anything that includes reacting to fire if it finds itself out of cover.

If you're lucky they will quickly get "pinned" and hit the deck fast. If you're not so lucky they will keep running toward their next waypoint at all costs.

Don't see the issue here.

 

If you give them a Hunt command, they will always stop on contact/fired at, and the speed of that stopping seems tailored to the experience level.

 

If you give them a regular Move/Quick/etc., then they will pursue the end goal the best they can. This isn't stupid tac AI, but the belief that where they're going is safer than stopping where they're at. If they're getting shot halfway through the command and contingencies were not used to prepare for that then it is the fault of the order itself. Now I don't wanna point any fingers but...

 

[Bulletpoint]

3 minutes ago, Khalerick said:

If you give them a Hunt command, they will always stop on contact/fired at, and the speed of that stopping seems tailored to the experience level.

No, they only stop if they spot enemy units or if their suppression meter fills up all the way. I tested and reported this complete with savegames showing units on HUNT orders plotting along for a full minute under fire.

[FlemFire]

4 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

No, they only stop if they spot enemy units or if their suppression meter fills up all the way. I tested and reported this complete with savegames showing units on HUNT orders plotting along for a full minute under fire.

Potato potatoe. The point is if you want them to stop mid-stride then you give them that command, or you set forth a series of leapfrogs with timed Pauses as prep. If you jet them across a field on a Quick/Fast command you can't really question their mentality to get where they're going instead of stopping where they're at. I've seen the exact inverse complaints numerous times where someone uses the Hunt command, the guys stop right in the middle of an open field/street, and promptly get cut to ribbons. You give them the command most suitable for the job.

[chuckdyke]

I had it in SF2 Elite British doing a careful move to contact on 'Hunt'. They received fire but no icons were shown so they carried on. The enemy fired from cover and concealment. Lesson learned it is safe to fire from cover and concealment. It is not very good for approaching buildings. Treat buildings as they are occupied. 

[Bulletpoint]

Just now, Khalerick said:

Potato potatoe. The point is if you want them to stop mid-stride then you give them that command, or you set forth a series of leapfrogs with timed Pauses as prep. If you jet them across a field on a Quick/Fast command you can't really question their mentality to get where they're going instead of stopping where they're at. I've seen the exact inverse complaints numerous times where someone uses the Hunt command, the guys stop right in the middle of an open field/street, and promptly get cut to ribbons. You give them the command most suitable for the job.

I don't think you fully understand how the game works. You give them the HUNT command to make them stop if fired upon, but they don't stop.

[chuckdyke]

2 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I don't think you fully understand how the game works. You give them the HUNT command to make them stop if fired upon, but they don't stop.

The AI is slow, Mine troops were probing, and I had crack sniper teams on overwatch. During the sixty seconds' turn they didn't react. Elite snipers range 300 yards using a cover arc. My TacAI ignored the fire. What I see on screen is just Borg Spotting I suppose.  

[FlemFire]

1 minute ago, Bulletpoint said:

I don't think you fully understand how the game works. You give them the HUNT command to make them stop if fired upon, but they don't stop.

Looks fine to me.

https://streamable.com/1bqi8b

[Bulletpoint]

2 minutes ago, Khalerick said:

Looks fine to me.

https://streamable.com/1bqi8b

Yes, it does look like it works as intended there. Maybe they fixed it in CMSF2. I'm playing BN and FB.

[chuckdyke]

As it is intended is slow, this is what happened to me yesterday, but they were on hunt through some foliage. 

[FlemFire]

Just now, Bulletpoint said:

Yes, it does look like it works as intended there. Maybe they fixed it in CMSF2. I'm playing BN and FB.

They may have in that latest update that changed infantry dynamics quite a bit. I know what you're referring to cause I've seen it mentioned here and there, just never ran into it myself. There might be other metrics involved as well but I've never really tested it with any strain.

But, basic point is I don't like blaming TacAI for not dropping-and-rolling when your command is to get from point A to point B. I'd rather the TacAI assume that my assessment of Point B is that it is the safest area to be, and get there, instead of deciding for itself that rocks and grass would be preferable cover. And that's what it does, thankfully. On the other hand, taking too many casualties too quickly or expecting too much out of inexperienced soldiers causes the commands to breakdown in sufficiently realistic ways, IMO. Also, when you make an ill advised move command and your troops follow it to unexpected doom... definitely feels like my fault which is how it should feel

 

[Bulletpoint]

2 minutes ago, Khalerick said:

But, basic point is I don't like blaming TacAI for not dropping-and-rolling when your command is to get from point A to point B. I'd rather the TacAI assume that my assessment of Point B is that it is the safest area to be, and get there, instead of deciding for itself that rocks and grass would be preferable cover.

I generally agree, but I think it should depend more on which move command is given.

For QUICK, I think the game should be better at evaluating the situation - how long till the end of the movement order? Almost there or a long way to go when bullets start flying? What cover is present at the destination? What cover is the team in when they start to take fire?

Those are the things that a real soldier would take into account. If you take fire on open ground, but you're running towards a building and you're almost there, I guess most would keep running and hope for the best. But if you're caught in the middle of an open field and you were only heading towards another open field, you might want to go prone where you are and return fire.

For FAST movement orders, I think the above logic should still apply, but troops should be more determined to reach their destination, and the motivation stat should come more into play.