Buddy Aid

[Freyberg]

3 minutes ago, c3k said:

Oh, they notice them all right. These are the men who no one likes. They're shirkers, card sharks, degenerates, and/or owe money, or dated their sisters...and then told everyone all about it. 

The lesson? Don't be that guy.

Haha - OK, next time I'll let them die and just go through their pockets.

[Heirloom_Tomato]

11 hours ago, IanL said:

Another possibility is that after buddy aid a KIA or WIA soldier model is removed from the battlefield and thus their status can no longer be changed by in game action. Other WIA soldiers who are still on the battlefield because they have not received buddy aid could end up being killed during the action of the game. In which case there is no number of soldiers who received buddy aid to report only some number of KIA and WIA soldiers that can be counted at the end.

The game is still keeping track of the number of KIA or WIA removed from the field of play correct? If I have 10 guys go down, four KIA and six WIA and I do no buddy aid, the game knows how many bodies are on the ground at the end of the battle. If I give buddy aid to those same 10 guys and there are no bodies on the ground at the end of the battle, the game still knows there were 10 casualties. So this information is being stored somewhere and then recalled at the end of the battle for the AAR page. If this is correct, somehow displaying the data on the AAR page showing how many men were removed from the battlefield would be interesting to see. As an example:

Men Ok:56

KIA: 4

WIA: 6

Buddy Aid Given: 0 or 10 for the two examples given.

I think it would give casualties an ever greater impact in the game if at the end of the battle you saw just how good or bad of a job you did taking care of your wounded men. 

I know it seems simple and often what seems simple would require a complete rewrite of the whole game code so, not gonna happen , but it would be fun to see. It could even be used as a house rule to declare a winner in the event of a draw. The guy who gave more buddy aid wins.

[A Canadian Cat]

10 hours ago, Heirloom_Tomato said:

Buddy Aid Given: 0 or 10 for the two examples given.

I think it would give casualties an ever greater impact in the game if at the end of the battle you saw just how good or bad of a job you did taking care of your wounded men.

Oh don't get me wrong - I actually like the idea. I was just pointing out that it is actually possible for that information to *not* already be available for *free*. That is all.

[Michael Emrys]

22 hours ago, c3k said:

They're shirkers, card sharks, degenerates, and/or owe money...

You got that last part wrong. You want the guys who owe money to survive, at least long enough to square their debts. The ones you want to make a quick exit are the ones you owe money to.

Michael

[RockinHarry]

Interesting. Wasn´t aware that buddy aid and my related "mod" (a simple file name change) was discussed a bit here. Thanks to @IanL for confirming effects in H2H play, which confirms both my own and @Heirloom_Tomato latest experiences in PBEM. Though stumbled for another reason on this thread. Got to experiment with buddy aid frequency and likely choice of medics, as well as recipient again and figured a number of issues. Guess these are known generally, but otherwise to add to @MOS:96B2P useful thread here.

My test setup (CMBN 4.02) was a simple hotseat US vs german infantry, controling both sides actions. After bits of mutual slaughter I set all units to hide and short range (10m) CA and see what happens, WIA/KIA concerned. Main issues observed:

The rate of selecting "specialists" (lMG gunners, german gunner assistants, leaders, radio operators, AT grenade rifles...) for the purpose of applying buddy aid I found way too high. While test setup (both sides do nothing and hide) allowed for such selections, a real battle situation would prevent these specialists from performing their more important main duties, staying at the ready and reacting to threats in timely manner.

Some medic/recipient combos observed:

Radio operators (from Plt or Coy HQ) taking preference as medic and oftenly looting lMG. Beside over arming a C2 dude having rather non combot responsibilites I also fear for overloading.

Soldiers (soldier class) usually grab rifle ammo, rifles with grenade launchers or lMG. Ok.

I´ve yet to see a guy having just a pistol (Browning or Luger) to grab a SMG (Thompson or MP40) despite having correct ammo (0.45 or 9mm) at hand.

Leaders (or team leaders) oftenly perform buddy aid, even if other less important unit members (simple rifle guys) are available and in same AS as WIA/KIA. I have concerns with the leaders main duties here, also beeing the only candidate observing with the binocs.

Binocs looted from non leaders oftenly show the binocs observing animation played, but without the bincos showing up. Also leads to odd animation flickers between rifles on the back when binocs are beeing attempted to be used.

In german standard infantry squads usually the no 7 or 8 (unless WIA/KIA) guy is firmly assigned as lMG gunner assistant. That means he usually moves with and positions itself on the free node next to the lMG gunner on its left side. In several occasions I had this gunner assitant looting another lMG from  WIA/KIA. That leads to a second lMG in this lMG 2 men combo, but then this one doesn´t get used and is wasted. That in addition to that lMG assistants serious pathfinding issues when attempt moving to or with his assigned lMG gunner (that lMG assitant always got to fight for his place, thus loosing precious time deploying, or in worst case remain outside a building when everybody else is in).

These are some the main issues observed and there might be some more. What´s your buddy aid/looting experiences in other games?

[Erwin]

2 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

I´ve yet to see a guy having just a pistol (Browning or Luger) to grab a SMG (Thompson or MP40) despite having correct ammo (0.45 or 9mm) at hand.

I recall a thread years ago that pointed out that in RL a rifle was more useful than a SMG in the vast majority of RL combat situations so this preference may be modeled correctly.  We get the illusion that SMG's are much more useful in the CM games as the ranges in CM scenarios are usually much shorter than most RL situations due to relatively small maps and/or the designers deliberately trying to block long LOS to make things more challenging.  

 

[RockinHarry]

5 hours ago, Erwin said:

I recall a thread years ago that pointed out that in RL a rifle was more useful than a SMG in the vast majority of RL combat situations so this preference may be modeled correctly.  We get the illusion that SMG's are much more useful in the CM games as the ranges in CM scenarios are usually much shorter than most RL situations due to relatively small maps and/or the designers deliberately trying to block long LOS to make things more challenging.  

 

SMG´s is among the smallest of mentioned issues. My main point was a unit member already having appropiate ammo at hand and nothing better than a pistol right ATM. Whatever the selection methods for buddy aid are, I remain with serious doubts. But knowing about issues also leads to avoid them to some extend. I.e keep away HQ units from possible buddy aid situations unless it´s inherent unit members concerned. Oftenly hard to apply to in defense situations when one does not want to move units (away) for that purpose. So it´s particularly bothersome in a defense position when you need certain guys staying on the alert. I oftenly find myself shouting "Noooo.... not you, not now! "  But instead of working around given issues, I´d prefer BFC putting more brains into that generally.

Edited September 18, 2019 by RockinHarry

[Holman]

I think I remember hearing that there's also a random element to weapon pick-up.

Maybe you just prefer your rifle to the sergeant's SMG, but maybe you also don't want it because it's smeared over with sarge's guts.

[Erwin]

IIRC - game also simulates guns may also be non-functioning if owner was hit.  But, again IIRC SMG's are never picked up.  Has anyone had an SMG picked up during buddy aid?

[MOS:96B2P]

+1 @RockinHarry  Interesting stuff. 

[General Jack Ripper]

On 9/19/2019 at 2:37 AM, Erwin said:

IIRC - game also simulates guns may also be non-functioning if owner was hit.  But, again IIRC SMG's are never picked up.  Has anyone had an SMG picked up during buddy aid?

I buddy aid everyone, everywhere, every time, and I do not recall a soldier acquiring an SMG at any time.
Strange, I guess I just didn't notice until you mentioned it.

Then again, when the SMG carrying soldier gets hit, the "stockpile" of SMG ammo he carried disappears from the squad's inventory, so the SMG itself may be deprioritized by the buddy aid system as being "inappropriate". While soldiers do pick up ammo, it is usually a very small amount, so even if they would pick up an SMG from a dead guy, they likely would only have a mag or two to use, which is essentially worthless.

However, the opposite of the equation is true, I HAVE seen a guy armed with an SMG pick up a rifle and use it when his SMG ran out of ammo.

[RockinHarry]

2 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

I buddy aid everyone, everywhere, every time, and I do not recall a soldier acquiring an SMG at any time.
Strange, I guess I just didn't notice until you mentioned it.

Then again, when the SMG carrying soldier gets hit, the "stockpile" of SMG ammo he carried disappears from the squad's inventory, so the SMG itself may be deprioritized by the buddy aid system as being "inappropriate". While soldiers do pick up ammo, it is usually a very small amount, so even if they would pick up an SMG from a dead guy, they likely would only have a mag or two to use, which is essentially worthless.

However, the opposite of the equation is true, I HAVE seen a guy armed with an SMG pick up a rifle and use it when his SMG ran out of ammo.

My only guess would be not allow taking SMG´s for "balancing" reasons since at close ranges these are the most deadly firearms. Got to watch out for any possible Sturmgewehr 44 restrictions as well.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

That sort of thing certainly didn't appear to apply with either CM:SF(original) or CM:A.....In the latter I've had a three man Spy Team arm themselves (by Buddy-Aid) with a PPSh-41, a RPK-74 and an AK-74 with 40mm GL! 

Edited September 24, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[General Jack Ripper]

21 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

My only guess would be not allow taking SMG´s for "balancing" reasons since at close ranges these are the most deadly firearms. Got to watch out for any possible Sturmgewehr 44 restrictions as well.

I dunno. When you watch a guy burn through an entire magazine by shooting it into the dirt six feet to the right of a prone enemy soldier in the middle of open ground one or two action spots away, your opinion of the "dakka dakka" types will change dramatically.

It's why I came to love the M1 Garand so much. The rifle guys rarely miss a shot at 16 meters distance.

[RockinHarry]

22 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

I dunno. When you watch a guy burn through an entire magazine by shooting it into the dirt six feet to the right of a prone enemy soldier in the middle of open ground one or two action spots away, your opinion of the "dakka dakka" types will change dramatically.

It's why I came to love the M1 Garand so much. The rifle guys rarely miss a shot at 16 meters distance.

haven´t tested on the Stg44 yet. Don´t see them that often in my usual CMBN and CMFB games. But modelling of small arms accuracy is quite a different topic with many variables involved.

[Bulletpoint]

On 9/24/2019 at 3:28 PM, General Jack Ripper said:

I dunno. When you watch a guy burn through an entire magazine by shooting it into the dirt six feet to the right of a prone enemy soldier in the middle of open ground one or two action spots away, your opinion of the "dakka dakka" types will change dramatically.

It's why I came to love the M1 Garand so much. The rifle guys rarely miss a shot at 16 meters distance.

Completely agree. If auto weapons could fire in shorter bursts and adjust their aim mid-burst, they'd be a lot better than they are now.

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Completely agree. If auto weapons could fire in shorter bursts and adjust their aim mid-burst, they'd be a lot better than they are now.

Sure and if bolt action rifles were laser guided they would be a lot better too.

It is not that easy to control the size of bursts on full auto - if the weapon doesn't have something built in. And it is not that easy to make small intentional adjustments to your aim while the weapon is chewing through rounds and chucking casings out the side.

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, IanL said:

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Completely agree. If auto weapons could fire in shorter bursts and adjust their aim mid-burst, they'd be a lot better than they are now.

Sure and if bolt action rifles were laser guided they would be a lot better too.

It is not that easy to control the size of bursts on full auto - if the weapon doesn't have something built in. And it is not that easy to make small intentional adjustments to your aim while the weapon is chewing through rounds and chucking casings out the side.

I do believe it's possible for assault rifles to fire in shorter bursts and adjust aim in between.

I also believe it's possible to adjust aim somewhat while firing a submachinegun burst at short ranges.

 

[Warts 'n' all]

I tend to just let my troops get on with it themselves. They know what they are doing with their weapons better than I do.

[Frenchy56]

On 9/25/2019 at 7:55 PM, IanL said:

Sure and if bolt action rifles were laser guided they would be a lot better too.

It is not that easy to control the size of bursts on full auto - if the weapon doesn't have something built in. And it is not that easy to make small intentional adjustments to your aim while the weapon is chewing through rounds and chucking casings out the side.

I dunno, have you ever fired a WW2 submachine gun full auto? 

The difference in burst length with weapons like the MP-40 would be about 1 or 2 rounds. The rate of fire and weight makes it easier to control overall, as I've seen in videos. Pushing against the weapon's recoil does not rule out aiming at another spot, by rotating your waist for example, ejecting casings have nothing to do with that at all.

 

It would be interesting if Thompson users started using the semi-auto mode around 200 meters. It's not just for show, and you find yourself short of .45 ammo pretty often.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Frenchy56

[A Canadian Cat]

2 hours ago, Frenchy56 said:

I dunno, have you ever fired a WW2 submachine gun full auto?

Not quite but close. A 1980s Serling which is very similar to a Sten but not the same. I am sure more experience soldiers could do better but it's not easy peasy that's for sure.

[Frenchy56]

1 minute ago, IanL said:

Not quite but close. A 1980s Serling which is very similar to a Sten but not the same. I am sure more experience soldiers could do better but it's not easy peasy that's for sure.

Well, I'm sure a soldier with sense would care not to dump most of his ammo into fruitless long bursts and end up unable to do much until resupply.

[A Canadian Cat]

2 minutes ago, Frenchy56 said:

Well, I'm sure a soldier with sense would care not to dump most of his ammo into fruitless long bursts and end up unable to do much until resupply.

True enough.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Presumably when he fired them, he didn't expect them to be fruitless? 

[Pelican Pal]

My experience was with an AR-15 mounted with a bump stock - but I found perfectly rotate the gun as I fired, and control bursts. Although it was difficult to maintain control if you tried moving the weapon in both the X and Y axis.  Vertically along the Y axis was also weird. Single axis movement was quite doable though.

Although my experience in more "milsim" games like Arma has led me to believe that against a real human you would be better off leading the target and then placing a burst in their path of movement. Allowing them to run into your fire than try to actually drag your weapon along with the target. As your ability to correctly rotate the weapon to match the targets speed would be difficult.

Close combat would likely change that equation - but CM doesn't do the greatest job of that regardless of how weapons fire.