Jump to content
kevinkin

Stryker vs Bradley

Recommended Posts

Reading some of the better accounts of the Kursk campaign might well be an instructive indicator. Many of the secondary roads in Ukraine are still probably little more than dirt tracks as we have seen in much film footage of the conflict in the region. And, at the tactical level vehicles, whether armoured or tracked must come off the roads at some point. All you need then is a decent continental thunderstorm - and these things are much more intensive than most thunderstorms we have in the UK. I have personal experience of this kind of storm while on summer holldays in Switzerland. You get a great deal of rain in a short period. Historical accounts of thunderstorms in Ukraine during the summer of 1943. For instance a severe thunderstorm during the late July 1943 assault by II SS Panzer Korps during the late afternoon om the third day of the battle brought the entire assualt to a halt because the ground turned to deep mud conditions after perhaps half an hour of torrential rain in a severe thunder storm. It has been noted that similar storms took place quite frequently during the Battle of Kursk.

Our Ukranian War takes place at the same time of year/ Severe thunder sorms in Ukraine are likely in this Continental climate zone. This is not a case of Stryker hate. All wheeled vehicles on both sides would suffer similarly. And tracked vehicles almost as much - as they diid in the summer of 1943 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I recall an old book from decades ago, 'Mounted Combat in Vietnam'. It included a map showing what proportion of the country was a 'no-go' area for armor - It was a large chunk of the place. Later in the war the percentage that was 'no-go' had shrunk dramatically due to more capable vehicles showing up and also large scale road building to get armor into and out of problematic areas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, MikeyD said:

I recall an old book from decades ago, 'Mounted Combat in Vietnam'. It included a map showing what proportion of the country was a 'no-go' area for armor - It was a large chunk of the place. Later in the war the percentage that was 'no-go' had shrunk dramatically due to more capable vehicles showing up and also large scale road building to get armor into and out of problematic areas.

I may have had the same book, except that mine was called Armored Combat in Viet Nam. I recall two maps except that one was for tanks and the second for APCs. The latter could go almost anywhere.

Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mass is important, not just tracks instead of wheels. 30-tonn Bradley would be stuck as well. BMPs are so light not just for amphibious capabilities!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, DMS said:

Mass is important, not just tracks instead of wheels. 30-tonn Bradley would be stuck as well. BMPs are so light not just for amphibious capabilities!

Aye, pressure is Force / Area. Force is Mass * Acceleration due to Gravity. Less mass, and more area are the best way to prevent a track from sinking. This being said, if both mass and total track area are increased proportionately, the ground pressure would be the same. In other words, the heavier you are, the wider (and longer) tracks you need.

Calculation-of-Nominal-Ground-Pressure.p

I found a fantastic document comparing the ground pressure of various Cold War and WW2 vehicles! Here it is: Tracked Vehicle Ground Pressure. It seems Soviet vehicles, both in WW2 and after, put a heavy emphasis on reducing ground pressure. Also interesting to see that the HVSS was a significant improvement, as well as interleaved wheels on German tanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, DerKommissar said:

Aye, pressure is Force / Area.

Indeed the basics are covered there but as you can see the graphic assuming even pressure for the area under and between the bogie wheels for the track is a simplification...

6 minutes ago, DerKommissar said:

Also interesting to see that the HVSS was a significant improvement, as well as interleaved wheels on German tanks.

Which is why suspension and wheel size and placement matter for tracked vehicles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Same reasoning I use to explain to the wife why I can’t carry her.  Dear, it is a simple issue of ground pressure, well just get bogged. 

Somehow she refuses to buy into science.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, IanL said:

Indeed the basics are covered there but as you can see the graphic assuming even pressure for the area under and between the bogie wheels for the track is a simplification...

Which is why suspension and wheel size and placement matter for tracked vehicles.

You are absolutely correct. This is a gross generalization. This also assumes a perfectly flat surface (let alone tread tension or wheel inflation) -- which makes the whole model moot.

Warning: do not design, manufacture or distribute AFVs based on my prior post. DerKommissar Enterprises will not be held responsible for any flawed designs.

Edited by DerKommissar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, sburke said:

Same reasoning I use to explain to the wife why I can’t carry her.  Dear, it is a simple issue of ground pressure, well just get bogged. 

Somehow she refuses to buy into science.

LOL - my method was to hit door frames as I tried to carry her. She now refuses all offers of being carried. ;)

Edited by IanL
added smillie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, DerKommissar said:

Warning: do not design, manufacture or distribute AFVs based on my prior post. DerKommissar Enterprises will not be held responsible for any flawed designs.

Awesome. :D

Yeah I don't want to detract from the basic message just point out there is a bunch of other things going on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/5/2018 at 12:02 AM, LUCASWILLEN05 said:

Here we see the kind of thing that often passes for a road in Ukraine - and I suspect this is one of the better ones  

 

More road than pothole, so yes, above average.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, c3k said:

I refuse to participate in this discussion until someone brings up soil shear strengths.

That is what my wife said. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, sburke said:

That is what my wife said. 

I think what she actually said to you was something more along the line of, "I haven't the strength to keep you from soiling my sheer things." Or something. ;) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, c3k said:

I think what she actually said to you was something more along the line of, "I haven't the strength to keep you from soiling my sheer things." Or something. ;) 

Bump your head again, Ken?

Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Michael Emrys said:

Bump your head again, Ken?

Michael

Hey! Don't blame me: sburke brought it up! 

And it's not a concussion if you don't lose consciousness, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, c3k said:

And it's not a concussion if you don't lose consciousness, right?

You are perhaps confusing that with what Dean Martin used to say: "You aren't drunk as long as you can still hold onto the floor."

Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×