PAK with 150mm shells

[StieliAlpha]

Gents, I am currently playing the Germans in “Dies Irae“ and wonder, that I have two PAK’s (one 50mm and one 75mm), which each have a few (say two each) 150mm rounds available.

Does anybody know what that is? 

[sburke]

Google it, yes it is real. It comes up periodically on the forum 

 

hmm wiki doesn’t have much but one of the grogs here will know.  

Edited October 18, 2017 by sburke

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, StieliAlpha said:

Does anybody know what that is? 

Check this out:

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

AFI

Edited October 18, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[StieliAlpha]

7 hours ago, IanL said:

Check this out:

 

Ah, thanks!

Now, as I read the linked thread, I remember, to have seen the pictures of the 37mm AT variant before. 

[nik mond]

Think of them as big honking rifle grenades for the paks

[MikeyD]

There's good reference material for the 37mm gun version but references to the bigger calibers are proportionately difficult to locate. I've seen perhaps one or two rather sketchy references on the 50mm version.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I believe it's the example on the extreme right in this image:

[StieliAlpha]

On 20.10.2017 at 9:02 PM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I believe it's the example on the extreme right in this image:

Hm, being the dull engineer again: Would not most of the propelling power go out off those holes? With no specific direction?

I‘d think: Fake.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

@StieliAlpha  There's a 50mm tube inside the perforated section (it extends about 2/3 of the length and is just visible if you study the image carefully) that fits into the muzzle, the perforated part fits over the muzzle brake:

Edited October 23, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[StieliAlpha]

18 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

@StieliAlpha  There's a 50mm tube inside the perforated section (it extends about 2/3 of the length and is just visible if you study the image carefully) that fits into the muzzle, the perforated part fits over the muzzle brake:

Oops, that drawing is interesting, indeed.

Of course, if they slid it over the muzzle brake, the thing needed holes to vent the gas. But, whoah, those holes must create havoc to any idea of a flight path. And the tiny find don’t look like they would help much.

Hmmm, would be interesting to talk to their engineers. I wonder what they thoughts, designing this thing. 🤔

[Sgt.Squarehead]

TBH it was something of a desperation measure.....If the KV is about to roll over your firing pit, it's time to go for the 150mm HEAT charge, at that range the lack of accuracy doesn't matter. 

I really miss having KVs to scare the bejesus out of German tanks.....Would love to see some more Ostfront stuff in due course.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[StieliAlpha]

4 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

TBH it was something of a desperation measure.....If the KV is about to roll over your firing pit, it's time to go for the 150mm HEAT charge, at that range the lack of accuracy doesn't matter.

Yep, but why not use the same design as for the 37mm and get rid of the outer thing then?

Otherwise, I am impressed that you could read my previous post, so full of typos. One should not try to type in the commuter train...

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Quite simply because the PAK-38 had a muzzle brake:

PAK-37:

PAK-38:

The PAK-37's HEAT round also had holes to vent propellant, you can see them clearly here:

PS - I believe that the cylindrical object by the gun's wheel is the ammo case for the HEAT round.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[StieliAlpha]

Ahaaaaa! The 37mm HEAT is not slid INTO, but ONTO the barrel. Ok, that explains something. But then the 75mm round is quite different. Really looks desperate.

Interesting, that the 37mm HEAT even has meaningful fins, compared to the tiny stubbles on the 75mm HEAT.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

The PAK-38 is 50mm, but yeah that's the measure of it.....Keep in mind that these weapons were only intended as a temporary stopgap, to give the AT units some punch against heavy tanks, until sufficient 75mm PAKs became available.

Another interim AT gun from this period was the PAK-97/38, which placed a modified French 75mm on a PAK-38 carriage:

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[c3k]

The holes helped.

Think about a badminton birdie. The lack of mass behind the cg means that the aerodynamic center is aft of the cg...leading to a stable, non-spinning, round. Or, to put it in "normal" terms: the center of mass is in the front of the object. The aerodynamic center is further aft. That's the role of the holed sleeve.

These would be fired with "blanks". They had extremely short ranges, so accuracy only had to be "good enough". (I have my suspicions that the main role was to keep the men's morale up so they would stay put when the enemy tanks first started coming their way. After that, it was moot whether or not they wanted to leave. They were already committed.)

[Warts 'n' all]

1 hour ago, c3k said:

"a badminton birdie".

Never heard it called that before. Around our way they're known as "Shuttlecocks".

[c3k]

Ahh. "Shuttlecock", as in all things from the motherland, sounds so much better. TBH, I was not fully caffeinated when I tried to pull the proper word. I shall reset the coffeemaker timer to an earlier hour so this will not happen again.

Edited October 24, 2017 by c3k

[StieliAlpha]

21 hours ago, c3k said:

Ahh. "Shuttlecock", as in all things from the motherland, sounds so much better. TBH, I was not fully caffeinated when I tried to pull the proper word. I shall reset the coffeemaker timer to an earlier hour so this will not happen again.

Never mind guys. I played Badminton for more than 20 years (in my good times, five times a week), so I understood „birdie“ as well as „shuttlecock“. BTW, we called that thing just „shuttle“.😎

@c3k I understand the theory, still I think those holes look so brutal, that they would create turbulences, which would make a joke of anything like a straight flight path. Probably, the whole design was really more to bolster the confidence.

[c3k]

If the holes create drag, they're doing their job. Hell, a chunk of rope tied to the end would be about as good.  

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Guys, keep in mind that shaped charges were in their infancy at the time.....TBH it was probably considered something of a techno-marvel in its day (especially if you found your self looking at the business end of a KV-1). 

[StieliAlpha]

12 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Guys, keep in mind that shaped charges were in their infancy at the time.....TBH it was probably considered something of a techno-marvel in its day (especially if you found your self looking at the business end of a KV-1). 

Reminds me to the old Steel Panthers days, when in one campaign my tiny battle group met with a substantial KV-1 and T34 force for the first time. My only solution was to call retreat on turn 1. Better to live and fight another day.