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2 hours ago, Mord said:

Hint: Whenever your men shout an order, it sounds like I something I would say.

Sorry, didn't catch it. Haven't had anything to drink yet.
I installed that mod so long ago I often forget it's there. I've just convinced myself the vanilla game sounds like that.

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I realize I am late to the party but I wanted to add some real life experience to the discussion on the effectiveness of indirect fire upon dug in Infantry.

In 1986 we completely dug an infantry platoon defensive position plus company weapons det. This totalled 12 x 2 man fire trenches, Platoon HQ bunker, a mortar pit and 1 x AT trench and a M249 MG trench. We also dug all the communication trenches as well. The individual fire trenches had proper overhead protection consisting of corrugated metal (you could stick your bayonet through it) covered by 2 layers of sandbags. The HQ bunker consisted of 6inch. diameter logs covered by corrugated steel and 2 layers of sand bags.

In each trench we put 2 x target balloons. In the HQ bunker we put 3 x target balloons. The mortar pit had 2 x balloons as did the MG and AT trench for a total simulation of 33 humans.

4x 155mm Howitzers (7km distance) and 4 x 81mm Mortars (3km distance) continuously fired both impact and airburst rounds. for exactly 3 min.

Upon inspection of aftermath we found the 2 balloons of the Mortar pit gone from a direct hit. 2 other balloons were gone presumably from shrapnel. The HQ bunker took a direct hit. 29 persons survived. Although bleeding ears and an overall stunning would most certainly have occurred.

Suppression is the main purpose for both artillery/mortars and machine guns. I have heard many gamers complain that their MGs and artillery/mortars are useless because they are not very accurate...good..they are not supposed to be.

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5 hours ago, squish1962 said:

I realize I am late to the party but I wanted to add some real life experience to the discussion on the effectiveness of indirect fire upon dug in Infantry.

In 1986 we completely dug an infantry platoon defensive position plus company weapons det. This totalled 12 x 2 man fire trenches, Platoon HQ bunker, a mortar pit and 1 x AT trench and a M249 MG trench. We also dug all the communication trenches as well. The individual fire trenches had proper overhead protection consisting of corrugated metal (you could stick your bayonet through it) covered by 2 layers of sandbags. The HQ bunker consisted of 6inch. diameter logs covered by corrugated steel and 2 layers of sand bags.

In each trench we put 2 x target balloons. In the HQ bunker we put 3 x target balloons. The mortar pit had 2 x balloons as did the MG and AT trench for a total simulation of 33 humans.

4x 155mm Howitzers (7km distance) and 4 x 81mm Mortars (3km distance) continuously fired both impact and airburst rounds. for exactly 3 min.

Upon inspection of aftermath we found the 2 balloons of the Mortar pit gone from a direct hit. 2 other balloons were gone presumably from shrapnel. The HQ bunker took a direct hit. 29 persons survived. Although bleeding ears and an overall stunning would most certainly have occurred.

Suppression is the main purpose for both artillery/mortars and machine guns. I have heard many gamers complain that their MGs and artillery/mortars are useless because they are not very accurate...good..they are not supposed to be.

Don't worry about  being late - facts trump opinions every time.

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12 hours ago, squish1962 said:

<Snip> In each trench we put 2 x target balloons. In the HQ bunker we put 3 x target balloons. The mortar pit had 2 x balloons as did the MG and AT trench for a total simulation of 33 humans.

4x 155mm Howitzers (7km distance) and 4 x 81mm Mortars (3km distance) continuously fired both impact and airburst rounds. for exactly 3 min.

Upon inspection of aftermath we found the 2 balloons of the Mortar pit gone from a direct hit. 2 other balloons were gone presumably from shrapnel. The HQ bunker took a direct hit. 29 persons survived. Although bleeding ears and an overall stunning would most certainly have occurred.

Suppression is the main purpose for both artillery/mortars and machine guns. I have heard many gamers complain that their MGs and artillery/mortars are useless because they are not very accurate...good..they are not supposed to be.

Very interesting. I've seen watermelons used but not balloons.  Same idea though.  Thanks for sharing. 

If you don't mind my asking what units were you in? I was 313 MI Bn. / 82nd Airborne 1983 -1987.  Thanks again

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13 hours ago, squish1962 said:

The individual fire trenches had proper overhead protection consisting of corrugated metal (you could stick your bayonet through it) covered by 2 layers of sandbags. The HQ bunker consisted of 6inch. diameter logs covered by corrugated steel and 2 layers of sand bags.

I've read the "Survivability" Field Manual (FM 5-103), and that sounds exactly right.
Be advised, trenches in CM do not model overhead cover.

Welcome to the thread.

Have you ever had so many books in your room you find them in your dirty laundry? ;)

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57 minutes ago, SLIM said:

Have you ever had so many books in your room you find them in your dirty laundry?

I have so many books they take up about 70% of a 10x10 storage bin I rented. It's a disease.

Welcome to the board, squish.

Mord.

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On 10/16/2017 at 5:52 PM, IICptMillerII said:

My feedback on your street fighting video:


The Army learned in WWII to avoid streets at all costs. Instead of moving through/down/along streets, they found that moving through buildings was much safer and more secure. In fact, they did this to the point where they only moved from building to building, and instead of using roads, they simply blew holes through adjacent buildings. This was called 'mouse holing.' A lot of this was learned the hard way through city fighting, specifically around the French town of Brest. It was further reinforced while fighting through Aachen later in the war. 

In the scenario in your videos, I would have moved through the buildings, avoiding the street as much as possible. Especially considering the enemy machine gun is in a position to pour enfilading fire down the street. Even with adequate smoke cover I would still opt to go from building to building.

If you want a source where you can read more about US Army tactics in urban warfare in WWII, then I highly recommend Closing with the Enemy by Michael Doubler.

Don't forget Ortona, although I don't know to what degree the US Army had to learn the same lessons on their own:

Quote

The Canadians now fought for Ortona house by house, often fighting from the top floor down. They used a “mouse-holing” technique–blasting through walls, lobbing grenades through the gaps and then using more grenades to move down the stairs. Here the Canadians wrote the book on street-fighting. After the war, former Seaforths commander Colonel S.W. Thomson recalled that the standard training film for British and Commonwealth forces, Fighting In Built-up Areas, was based on interviews with Seaforth and Edmonton veterans.

https://legionmagazine.com/en/1997/11/the-battle-for-ortona/

https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/history/battlehonours/italiancampaign/ortona.htm

And in fact these tactics were already codified in the January 1943 training pamphlet Fighting in Built-up Areas.

Edited by akd
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3 hours ago, akd said:

Don't forget Ortona, although I don't know to what degree the US Army had to learn the same lessons on their own:

What you stated is essentially the case; the US Army had to learn its own lessons. While there were urban fights before the invasion of France, all that were encountered were not on the same scale and ferocity of the city fights that occurred in Western Europe. So the US Army didn't really have a "proper" urban fight until France. 

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