tanks Tank tactics: why the regression?

[Erwin]

"So they go, hop in, grab the items."

Except in game terms there should be no need to "hop in" in order to ACQUIRE other than eye candy (unless one wants the unit(s) to actually embark for transport elsewhere).

ACQUIRE to and from adjacent units is what we're talking about.  This would eliminate the wasted time and irritation of clicking in order to split units, embark units, disembark units and have them recombine... merely in order to resupply a number of units simultaneously.  

 

[Heirloom_Tomato]

On 8/25/2018 at 11:57 AM, Erwin said:

 

• Engineers who blast a wall but do NOT run thru it.  (Currently we have to time it out so they blast right at the end of a turn.) 

 

12 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

•  
• You can do this already, just place the BLAST waypoint in the action spot the engineers are already located, they will blast the wall and then stay put.

I learned a trick from someone on these forums for using Blast.  Get the Engineers into position for where you want them to blow the hole. Using the Blast command, place the way point to the action square or two immediately to the right or left of where you want them to Blast. They will set off the demo charge and then move to side, instead of charging through the opening.

[Bulletpoint]

About the acquire command, I often find it a lot of click-work when using armoured infantry - each squad must be told to pick up 1000 bullets for the MG, 200 for the SMG, maybe some extra for the MP44, a Panzerfaust or Bazooka.. the next squad. And next squad.

Especially with larger scenarios several times, it would be nice to have some kind of "grab ammo and dismount all" option. Or it could be built into the  existing "dismount" button. So if you pressed that during setup, they would grab ammo, but if you manually moved the squad out of its halftrack, they would leave the ammo behind. Something like that.

[General Jack Ripper]

23 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

If a tank commander wants the tank to go into hull-down, fire one shot and then reverse, that's what he will order the driver and gunner to do. He wouldn't tell the driver to go forward, wait exactly 10 seconds, then reverse.

It would go more like this:

• Driver, forward.
• Driver, halt.
• Gunner, target tank at one o'clock.
• Gunner, fire!
• Driver reverse!

Which would probably take about ten seconds. Or, if you're feeling lucky, use a five second pause instead.

What you're asking for is this:

"Make me a whole bunch of highly specific unit commands that I will probably only use maybe once per battle, otherwise this game is incomplete crap!"

*Shrug

 

22 hours ago, Oliver_88 said:

I do not believe Erwins stating that such things are not possible (other than the engineers blasting through). Rather that such things are possible but the amount in user interface actions required to accomplish those tasks is maybe excessive. They are taking numerous turns/clicks to carry out when with an more streamlined user interface that could be halved. I took his post to be able saving time and making actions easier rather than stating such things are not possible in any manner at the moment.

Everyone would like to save time on everything, but that doesn't mean the devs should waste time trying to save everyone some time.
Especially things as rare as driving a vehicle column down a road, which barely ever happens. You dig?

 

22 hours ago, Oliver_88 said:

• Adjacent units from the same group share ammo. Adjacent units from different groups cannot. So 1 Platoon cannot share with 2 Platoon etc.

If 2nd Platoon is so desperately low on ammo they need to call 1st Platoon over to share ammo, you've probably done something wrong. Because what you should do is withdraw 2nd Platoon and leave 1st Platoon in their place, thus freeing up 2nd Platoon to go resupply. How many people have actually run out of ammo in this game? Ever? Can I see a show of hands?

Maybe I should skip the next part of the TTP videos and make a new one called: "One easy solution to NOT run out of ammo!"

 

13 hours ago, Erwin said:

ACQUIRE to and from adjacent units is what we're talking about.  This would eliminate the wasted time and irritation of clicking in order to split units, embark units, disembark units and have them recombine... merely in order to resupply a number of units simultaneously.

Vehicles do not occupy action spots. Thus, acquiring ammo from a vehicle would require a whole lot of work to implement, unlike ammo dumps which are placed directly in an action spot, and can thus be acquired from any adjacent action spot. In game terms, this cannot be done with vehicles.

How long, in real time, does it take to grab some ammo out the back of a truck and pass it out to everyone in a squad?

Because if it takes longer than two minutes you have nothing to complain about, because the same action can be completed in game in two minutes (turn based) or about fifteen seconds (real time).

• TURN ONE: Split scout team and order to move into vehicle.
• TURN TWO: Acquire ammo and order to move back to squad.
• Elapsed Time: 120 Seconds.

 

12 hours ago, Heirloom_Tomato said:

I learned a trick from someone on these forums for using Blast.  Get the Engineers into position for where you want them to blow the hole. Using the Blast command, place the way point to the action square or two immediately to the right or left of where you want them to Blast. They will set off the demo charge and then move to side, instead of charging through the opening.

Nice. I'll keep this in mind.

[Bulletpoint]

12 minutes ago, General Jack Ripper said:

23 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

If a tank commander wants the tank to go into hull-down, fire one shot and then reverse, that's what he will order the driver and gunner to do. He wouldn't tell the driver to go forward, wait exactly 10 seconds, then reverse.

It would go more like this:

• Driver, forward.
• Driver, halt.
• Gunner, target tank at one o'clock.
• Gunner, fire!
• Driver reverse!

I like how you said basically the same thing but with more bulletpoints. I like those.

[Erwin]

1 minute ago, General Jack Ripper said:

Get the Engineers into position for where you want them to blow the hole. Using the Blast command, place the way point to the action square or two immediately to the right or left of where you want them to Blast. They will set off the demo charge and then move to side, instead of charging through the opening.

Been very aware of this trick for years.  However, it doesn't always work as advertised.  Have wasted many charges this way.  Not sure what success depends on.   Maybe the angle the obstruction is relative to the map/action square.

Re ammo, it's agreed that the simplest method to avoid running out of ammo is to load up at set-up.  However, it bothers me re realism to have a squad carrying so many extra thousands of rounds - maybe 700-1000+ rounds per man - as it doesn't seem as if the game sufficiently penalizes the mobility of such a heavily laden unit.  

So, my SOP is to not have the average trooper carry much more than 400 rounds each (esp if they also have RPG's etc).  In many scenarios I have played one has to send a supply truck to resupply (eg MOS's excellent Tactical Ops Center scenario) and it is a PITA  to have to resupply a company from a single supply vehicle when one has to SPLIT, MOUNT, ACQUIRE, DISEMBARK, RECOMBINE as many as 9+ squads.

"Everyone would like to save time on everything, but that doesn't mean the devs should waste time trying to save everyone some time."

Completely understand this POV.  Obviously different players have different priorities.  Some of us believe that the UI challenge is becoming more and more of an important priority in terms of streamlining the mechanics of play, esp as scenarios get larger with more units, as the game itself is pretty dam good as is. 

All we're saying is that we want to spend more time on the "fun" tactical challenges of the game and less time trying to manipulate the UI to do basic tasks.

 

[MOS:96B2P]

12 hours ago, Heirloom_Tomato said:

Get the Engineers into position for where you want them to blow the hole. Using the Blast command, place the way point to the action square or two immediately to the right or left of where you want them to Blast. They will set off the demo charge and then move to side, instead of charging through the opening.

 

26 minutes ago, General Jack Ripper said:

Nice. I'll keep this in mind.

Below is my current drill for Blasting walls, bocage and wire.   I have found this drill is not reliable for Blasting buildings (sometimes it works with buildings sometimes it does not).  @Erwin this may be why you have had problems with this drill if you are attempting to use it on buildings  

Wall, Bocage & Wire Blast Drill¹ 

1. First turn give the demo team a Quick waypoint² next to the obstacle.

2. Highlight and give the Quick waypoint a Face order into the obstacle.

3. Give demo team a Blast waypoint 1 or 2 parallel A/S away from Quick/Face waypoint.

4. Demo team will Blast at the location & direction of the Quick/Face waypoint.

5. After the Blast the demo team will reposition to the Blast waypoint.

Notes: 1)Drill is not reliable with building walls. 2) If team starts next to obstacle, Face order will be cancelled by creation of the Blast waypoint.      

 

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by MOS:96B2P

[DerKommissar]

16 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

 

Below is my current drill for Blasting walls, bocage and wire.   I have found this drill is not reliable for Blasting buildings (sometimes it works with buildings sometimes it does not).  @Erwin this may be why you have had problems with this drill if you are attempting to use it on buildings  

Wall, Bocage & Wire Blast Drill¹ 

1. First turn give the demo team a Quick waypoint² next to the obstacle.

2. Highlight and give the Quick waypoint a Face order into the obstacle.

3. Give demo team a Blast waypoint 1 or 2 parallel A/S away from Quick/Face waypoint.

4. Demo team will Blast at the location & direction of the Quick/Face waypoint.

5. After the Blast the demo team will reposition to the Blast waypoint.

Notes: 1)Drill is not reliable with building walls. 2) If team starts next to obstacle, Face order will be cancelled by creation of the Blast waypoint.      

 

 

Good drill, I learned this one the hard way after blasting near the bocage. xD

My advice for breaching buildings is to put the team next to the building's wall (doesn't matter how), then put the BLAST command inside the building (so it's perpendicular to the wall). Be warned that the sappers will storm the building after breach. That's often what I want.

[JoMac]

1 hour ago, General Jack Ripper said:

It would go more like this:

• Driver, forward.
• Driver, halt.
• Gunner, target tank at one o'clock.
• Gunner, fire!
• Driver reverse!

Which would probably take about ten seconds. Or, if you're feeling lucky, use a five second pause instead.

Yeah, maybe in Modern, but WWII would be more like twice that time...

Edited August 27, 2018 by JoMc67

[MOS:96B2P]

17 minutes ago, DerKommissar said:

My advice for breaching buildings is to put the team next to the building's wall (doesn't matter how), then put the BLAST command inside the building (so it's perpendicular to the wall). Be warned that the sappers will storm the building after breach. That's often what I want.

I have a few different drills I use for buildings depending on if I think the building is empty, occupied and/or if I think the OpFor has LOS to the building.  Of course many times I'm not sure if the building is empty, occupied or in the OpFor has LOS (especially if the OpFor has LOS).  Always a command decision and often a tense 60 seconds............... 

[Lethaface]

I agree that it would be nice to have the option to tell a tank (or whatever) to go shoot and scoot, especially in WEGO. The question is than how long a unit should wait if it can't get a shot at anything, before it should scoot without shooting. 

However, abstractly this is already implemented in the (realtime) game. You tell a tank to move somewhere and wait till it shoots, than tell it to go scoot (although in WEGO you are limited giving orders once per minute). You can tell how long it should wait, or just wait for the next turn to give the scoot order. What we seem to desire is a function where a unit can be told to pause at a waypoint, until a shot is fired AND OR a timer expires. 

Anyway, in my experience the pause system works fine given the niche need. There are few instances where I would really benefit from a shoot and scoot command, but overall I think my user experience wouldn't change that much (although I agree that less admin would be a bless for CM). In the current situation I usually just let units sit on a place for a (couple of) turns, before scooting. It is only in specific duel situations that a shoot and scoot order with more finegrained controls over the current pause timer functionality would really make a difference. It sure won't ease up on the 'command' burden, as you'd still have to tell for how long you want to wait before scooting anyway. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Lethaface

[Wicky]

I'm wondering how the hunt and hull down commands will work with the Archer tank coming soon in CMFI. Everything in CMBO orders wise for that back-to-front SPATG was backwards...

[Oliver_88]

3 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

Everyone would like to save time on everything, but that doesn't mean the devs should waste time trying to save everyone some time.
Especially things as rare as driving a vehicle column down a road, which barely ever happens. You dig?

I also completely understand that point of view, especially considering the size of the development team. I am wanting the patch to come out and would not trade that for longer wait with some user interface changes for example. But should be seen to at some point, or else what should software never ever update any user interfaces, never streamline or improve anything? As Erwin stated in response to you on that different players have different priorities and I would definitely not consider an rework upon the acquire system to be an waste in time. The vehicles in convoy are used just an example its not the entire motive for such user interface changes, you dig?

3 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

If 2nd Platoon is so desperately low on ammo they need to call 1st Platoon over to share ammo, you've probably done something wrong. Because what you should do is withdraw 2nd Platoon and leave 1st Platoon in their place, thus freeing up 2nd Platoon to go resupply. How many people have actually run out of ammo in this game? Ever? Can I see a show of hands?

It was just an slight correction upon the statement "adjacent units share ammo already" as rather the situation goes "adjacent units within the same group share ammo already one magazine at a time and only once that ammo is depleted". The ammo sharing system between adjacent units is an last ditch "crap I'm out and need a mag" kind of thing. And I do not believe that was quite the answer to what Erwin was talking about, only acquiring ammo from vehicles was, which we see as somewhat clunky.

But seeing as you ask. Indeed I have had platoons run out with certain ammo types. Such as for the single 2 inch mortar in the British infantry and airborne platoons. Any resupply for them depends upon the availability of some infantry carrier/anti-tank section vehicles. Also ran out with grenades in an platoon before.

3 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

Maybe I should skip the next part of the TTP videos and make a new one called: "One easy solution to NOT run out of ammo!"

I am sensing some facetiousness. So yes please. And please also do one on how you would during battle resupply this pioneer section from this jeep in an airborne only battle. Do not bother I know the answer. First turn order disembark on crew. Next turn order embark on pioneers. Next turn order acquire and disembark on pioneers. Next turn order embark on crew.

 

3 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

Vehicles do not occupy action spots. Thus, acquiring ammo from a vehicle would require a whole lot of work to implement, unlike ammo dumps which are placed directly in an action spot, and can thus be acquired from any adjacent action spot. In game terms, this cannot be done with vehicles.

I am not so sure that distinction is that much of an barrier to such an system to be honest. I gather such framework for units that occupy action spots (such as infantry) interacting with those that do not occupy action spots (such as vehicles) already exists. An 2 inch light mortar crew for example knows there's an carrier containing 2 inch ammo nearby and gets that ammunition added onto it's own. So sharing between vehicles and infantry can work despite the distinction. As well as various other actions between the two types. So acquire should be able to also and it's not something completely revolutionary to the workings in combat mission.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Oliver_88

[AlexUK]

In real life, in a full scale battle, how likely would one platoon which has seen combat, and is still in immediate danger, give up ammunition to another platoon? I would guess it would be pretty unlikely? Maybe after the fight is over, but during the battle?

I agree that there doesn't seem much of a weight penalty to 'overstocking' with Ammo, I have no military experience, but I would guess most soldiers will have to balance personal mobility Vs ammo. 

[sburke]

12 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

About the acquire command, I often find it a lot of click-work when using armoured infantry - each squad must be told to pick up 1000 bullets for the MG, 200 for the SMG, maybe some extra for the MP44, a Panzerfaust or Bazooka.. the next squad. And next squad.

Especially with larger scenarios several times, it would be nice to have some kind of "grab ammo and dismount all" option. Or it could be built into the  existing "dismount" button. So if you pressed that during setup, they would grab ammo, but if you manually moved the squad out of its halftrack, they would leave the ammo behind. Something like that.

But what would they acquire?  Expounding on your idea if I get your overall perspective is you’d have some kind of drop down. Select what you want and then close with dismount. Is that what you ate thinking?  I do like the idea of selecting from a list kind of showing 2 panels. One of what is in vehicle and the other what my squad has and being able to move stuff in either direction. Then once I have moved everything I want close and dismount. 

3 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said:

If 2nd Platoon is so desperately low on ammo they need to call 1st Platoon over to share ammo, you've probably done something wrong. Because what you should do is withdraw 2nd Platoon and leave 1st Platoon in their place, thus freeing up 2nd Platoon to go resupply. How many people have actually run out of ammo in this game? Ever? Can I see a show of hands?

Oh oh Mr Kotter!  

I have!  Not so much in WW2 games, but in modern you can go through a shockingly large amount of ammo in no time. Nothing worse than watching your MG guy using his pistol. Well maybe there are worse things but I have seen it a few times. I have learned the hard way to look at the game at setup and figure out before I even begin do I think I am gonna burn through ammo and what is resupply going to be like?  Hmm urban battle, yeah load up cause I am not going to likely be running a vehicle in close with RPGs floating around and I may not have the luxury of breaking off a section and sending them back to load up.  It also may take them a bit to get back to wherever I left the trucks to grab and return. 

Thing is I actually love that aspect.  I’d like an ammo check in the audio files too!  

As to your comment above wait till CMSF2 is out then go play circle the wagons.   2nd platoon is gonna be too busy to take over for 1st platoon so you better be making sure of 1st platoon’s ammo state. 

[Michael Emrys]

1 hour ago, sburke said:

As to your comment above wait till CMSF2 is out then go play circle the wagons.   2nd platoon is gonna be too busy to take over for 1st platoon so you better be making sure of 1st platoon’s ammo state.

Oooo! Oooo! Is that a sneak peek? A bonissima?

Michael

[sburke]

4 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

Oooo! Oooo! Is that a sneak peek? A bonissima?

Michael

It is an existing CMSF scenario so you can play it now. Won’t necessarily play the same, but you’d get the drift.  

[Erwin]

4 hours ago, Lethaface said:

What we seem to desire is a function where a unit can be told to pause at a waypoint, until a shot is fired AND OR a timer expires. 

Yes.  That would be good for vehicles as well as AT teams.  Often one wants a team or vehicle (eg: fast tank destroyer) to wait until a target shows up, fire at it and then immediately run and hide (not fire, thus exposing itself, then sit around to be spotted and killed).  

[General Jack Ripper]

7 hours ago, Erwin said:

However, it bothers me re realism to have a squad carrying so many extra thousands of rounds - maybe 700-1000+ rounds per man - as it doesn't seem as if the game sufficiently penalizes the mobility of such a heavily laden unit.

PER MAN?! Geez, and people call me a Pixeltruppen sadist...

 

4 hours ago, Oliver_88 said:

But seeing as you ask. Indeed I have had platoons run out with certain ammo types. Such as for the single 2 inch mortar in the British infantry and airborne platoons. Any resupply for them depends upon the availability of some infantry carrier/anti-tank section vehicles. Also ran out with grenades in an platoon before.

This is a prime example of where to pass out extra ammo before a scenario begins.

 

4 hours ago, Oliver_88 said:

I am sensing some facetiousness. So yes please. And please also do one on how you would during battle resupply this pioneer section from this jeep in an airborne only battle. Do not bother I know the answer. First turn order disembark on crew. Next turn order embark on pioneers. Next turn order acquire and disembark on pioneers. Next turn order embark on crew.

Jeeps are not bulletproof, so why you would drive one around during a combat situation is beyond me. I disembark all jeeps at the start of a scenario, and pass out all short ammo, such as SMG ammo, at the start of the scenario. The only time I actually use jeeps is if a unit needs a radio.

 

4 hours ago, Oliver_88 said:

An 2 inch light mortar crew for example knows there's an carrier containing 2 inch ammo nearby and gets that ammunition added onto it's own. So sharing between vehicles and infantry can work despite the distinction.

I never even knew that was a thing. Then again, I barely play Commonwealth forces due to my utter disdain for Canadians.

[General Jack Ripper]

4 hours ago, sburke said:

Oh oh Mr Kotter!  

I have!  Not so much in WW2 games, but in modern you can go through a shockingly large amount of ammo in no time.

Nice to know you have such high regard for taxpayer dollars. Didn't you get the memo about NOT firing all of Uncle Sam's retirement benefits downrange at every opportunity?!

[General Jack Ripper]

4 hours ago, sburke said:

As to your comment above wait till CMSF2 is out then go play circle the wagons.   2nd platoon is gonna be too busy to take over for 1st platoon so you better be making sure of 1st platoon’s ammo state. 

I dunno. I have a long history of unconventional solutions to conventional problems. My playthrough of The Hornet's Nest is easy proof of that.

[sburke]

7 minutes ago, General Jack Ripper said:

I dunno. I have a long history of unconventional solutions to conventional problems. My playthrough of The Hornet's Nest is easy proof of that.

If I recall that had something to do with Arty.  Good luck with that when all you have is some 60mm.    You do have two Abrams.  However they are stuck and very very vulnerable.

As to the ammo usage - that was ummm…. QA testing yeah that's it!

[Sgt.Squarehead]

The General's real trick was speed.....He captured his objectives and hit ceasefire while ISIS were still groping their way through the tunnels. 

I didn't think it could be done so quickly, but I was impressed with the result and decided to leave it in there.....You still have to capture sufficient objectives while taking sufficiently few casualties for it to work.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead

[sburke]

Just now, Sgt.Squarehead said:

The General's real trick was speed.....He captured his objectives and hit ceasefire while ISIS were still groping their way through the tunnels. 

Sneaky.  I tried that in Circle the wagons.  The first time it worked brilliantly (though I still used a ton of ammo).  The 2nd time I got a different AI plan.... it didn't go well (but I had a lot of leftover ammo once I buddy aided everyone)  .

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I've got a few plans for the Bishr map when CM:SF2 comes out (I'm mostly over the 'ammo dump issue' now).....Red vs. Red in a really big city, that's not Ramadi (or Mosul).