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Been playing around with the leadership modifier....  

From what I can tell... if a platoon HQ has +2 ... but the Squads themselves have a 0 leadership...  then these squads WILL break and run under fire, no matter what their HQ leaders experience.   

Any confirmation of this or thoughts on leadership / starting attributes?

-Boz

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Maybe this also (atleast in part) is due to the new infantry behavior introduced with the V4.0 update._? Infantry being more prone to withdrawing._.

I´m pretty sure that the leadership moddifiers will have atleast some impact going down the chain of command. It would be strange otherwise._.

The leadership moddifiers are pretty subtle though imo. What is the experience-level, motivation of the troops ?

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These were crack, uhhh and I think normal motivation.....  My thinking was..... there is a squad leader that is also effected by leadership boosting.... but it seems like you are saying the leadership bonus (beyond +1) is somewhat irrelevant and a waste of points.   Points which BTW, can really add up.....   This is one of those things a DEFINITE answer would be good, not the enjoyable "purposefully vague" type of mystery.....

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18 minutes ago, Bozilas said:

.... but it seems like you are saying the leadership bonus (beyond +1) is somewhat irrelevant and a waste of points.   Points which BTW, can really add up..... ..

It may not be irrelevant._.But quite subtle._.Obviously a +2 leader will be better then a +1 one but it is not like you will stand up and shout " wow ! Look at these troops go._.They are lead by a plus 2 commander and not a plus 1 one"._.

The leadership modifiers have been discussed quite a few times and iirc the general wiew on this have been that these modifiers are._.Subtle._.

But they do improve things._.To what degree though few people seems to know exactelly.

Sorry for the vague answer._.Hopefully more guys will comment on this and give a more precise answer..I would be intrested to hear more about this also._.

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1 hour ago, Bozilas said:

Been playing around with the leadership modifier....  

From what I can tell... if a platoon HQ has +2 ... but the Squads themselves have a 0 leadership...  

 

1 hour ago, RepsolCBR said:

I´m pretty sure that the leadership moddifiers will have atleast some impact going down the chain of command.

@JoseyWales has a very informative thread over at The Few Good Men gaming club on soft factors including leadership.  He is still testing various things but maybe he will noticed that I tagged him here and stop by.  I believe the following is true based on his thread at the FGM:

A Leadership modifier for a HQ unit does not filter down to subordinate units.  The Leadership modifier only applies to the team/vehicle of the leader.  For example a Lt has a -2 Leadership and is the leader of 1st Platoon HQ. His Leadership modifier does not affect the rifle squads under his command, only the 3 other troops in his HQ team.

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Hi all, first time posting on here.

An excerpt from my sticky post over at the FGM entitled "The Relationship between Soft Factors, Morale & Fatigue"  ; 

The Leadership (Ldrshp) modifier for all units (from Btn Hqs through to Plt Hqs down to squads and teams) only effects the unit that the modifier is for, in the same way that a -2 Fitness modifier only effects the fitness of the unit that the modifier is for.

In fact, it helps to think of the Leadership modifier in the same was as the Fitness modifier. An unfit Plt HQ does not make all of the squads in that platoon unfit aswell.


So a squad with a -1 Ldrshp modifier is not offset by the +1 Ldrshp modifier of its Plt HQ. The squad will still suffer the penalties of having -1 Ldrshp.

 

This finding, along with others, have been painstakingly teased out of the game through isolation of factors and thorough testing. Although some of my findings are controversial and go against what some people think is happening, each of the statements I have made in the post can be backed up by video evidence and indeed I have one on this very subject;

 

 

Edited by Josey Wales

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Thank you for doing all that testing and presenting it in such a clear, easy to understand format.  Wish this stuff had been in the manual 7 or so years ago.  Very very useful!

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20 minutes ago, Xorg_Xalargsky said:

@Josey Wales Brilliant investigative work!

Yes ! Big thanks for your testing and explenation._.

Two things though._.

May the reason for the other squads getting lowered moralstate come from the fact that they are SEEING the suicide squad getting cut down and not neccesarelly from belonging to the same platoon ? If you place an independent LMG-team or something along with the other stationary guys will not that team also suffer from lowered moral ?

How about the rallying capabillties of the squads ? Will a high moral HQ do nothing to improve this among its subordinate troops ?

I don't have the game up and running currently (computer problems) so i cant test this.

 

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4 hours ago, Erwin said:

Thank you for doing all that testing and presenting it in such a clear, easy to understand format.  Wish this stuff had been in the manual 7 or so years ago.  Very very useful!

Hear, hear! I've never really been clear on what the Leadership factor represents and BFC's replies on the subject have been vague at best. So it is great to get some unambiguous information on the subject. As you (Josey Wales) present it, it is somewhat unintuitive in that it does not seem to affect units further down the chain of command, which is not what I had hoped. But there it is and it is what it is, and it is good to know.

Michael

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Thanks all for the feedback.

@RepsolCBR

 

another excerpt from my sticky at the FGM to answer your questions;

"1. Persistent Impact on Morale - casualty build up

The 1st condition which affects Morale is the build up of casualties. Casualties sustained reduce the Morale of the unit for the remainder of the game and is therefore known as a persistent effect.

Morale affected in this way cannot be regained (except under one specific condition - see Leadership). The impact of this depends on the number of casualties sustained over time and the Experience, Leadership and Motivation of the unit.

Not only does taking casualties effect the Morale of the unit directly impacted, other units organisationally closely connected are also affected in the same way but to a lesser extent. The persistent Morale effect of casualty build up only effects other units via organisational connection regardless of geographical proximity.

Example 1 - 1st and 2nd Sqd of 1st Plt are separated by 500m. As 1st squad sustains casualties and suffers a persistent Morale impact, 2nd Sqd will also suffer a persistent Morale impact even though it is 500m away and has no LOS to 1st Sqd.

Example 2 - 1st Sqd of 1st Plt is within 10m of 3rdSqd of 2nd Plt. 3rd Sqd of 2nd Plt receives incoming fire and half of the unit is wiped out and the Sqd is instantly Shaken. 1st Sqd of 1st Plt receives no impact to their persistent Morale state due to the fact that they are in a different Platoon. 2nd Plt would have to take far more casualties before any of 1st Plt become affected.

The way the persistent Morale impact from casualty build up is distributed to other units is vertical between different platoons and companies although it is horizontal between units of the same platoon."

 

Another controversial point I know, but it is what has been observed and can be backed up.
 

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4 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

Hear, hear! I've never really been clear on what the Leadership factor represents and BFC's replies on the subject have been vague at best. So it is great to get some unambiguous information on the subject. As you (Josey Wales) present it, it is somewhat unintuitive in that it does not seem to affect units further down the chain of command, which is not what I had hoped. But there it is and it is what it is, and it is good to know.

Michael

Hi Michael,

although the Ldrshp modifier of the HQ unit does not directly affect the squads/units below it, having a good or bad Lsrshp modifier for a Plt HQ for example does have an indirect impact on the Plt's performance.

The key element to maintain, particularly between a Plt HQ and its subordinate squads, is C2. Not only for the information sharing aspect which @MOS:96B2P has looked into and posted an excellent insight into how information is distributed, but also because units within Close Visual or Voice range of their HQ receive a bonus against the temporary impact on morale caused by suppression.

An HQ with a poor Ldrshp modifier is more susceptible to becoming Shaken or Panic('ked) than one with a good modifier. Once an HQ is in the Shaken or Panic morale state, the C2 link to its' subordinate squads/units is lost and the bonus that the subordinate units would have been getting against the temporary impact on morale caused by suppression is lost for the duration that the HQ is in the Shaken or Panic morale state. This means that the subordinate squads are now more susceptible to being temporarily reduced to a lower morale state than they would have been if the C2 link was still in place..

Additionally, units with a lower Ldrshp modifier recover from suppression at a slower rate than units with a higher Ldrshp modifier. So a Plt HQ with a low Ldrshp modifier is not only more susceptible to becoming Shaken or Panic('ked), it will also stay in that state for longer than a HQ with a higher Ldrshp modifier. This in turn means the C2 link to the subordinate squads/units is lost for a longer duration.

Experience also provides the same benefit in terms of temporary impact on morale caused by suppression and the time in takes to recover from suppression.

Motivation also provides the same benefit in terms of temporary impact on morale caused by suppression. However, motivation provides no benefit in recovery time.

 

Edited by Josey Wales

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Thank you for this topic!

Plt HQ leadership does not affect permanent morale state, but it does affect temporal state with C2. So I still have to keep playing the way I have been playing and a +2 is still better than a -2.

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Ivan - I looked at your Competent Incompetence AAR as that is a great CMA campaign.  However, I recommend that folks use the Marco Bergman mod for weapons which give range and caliber for all CMA weapons.  It's possible it was originally made for CMSF.  So if it's not in a CMA mod section check CMSF.   As good as your mod is, I think you will find MB's is even better.

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