A Canadian Cat Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 16 minutes ago, patrykd said: CM Road to Rome Oooo what's that? Are there two CMFI modules in the works? Kidding aside the module is called CM Rome to Victory - see a recent bones post from this summer: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 54 minutes ago, patrykd said: Hi Steve. Please tell us something about CM Road to Rome. I was about to say something about it, as there is new information to tell you, but I'm going to wait until later tonight. The discussion here has got me thinking about making a long overdue (good!) change. I'm going to do both at one time AND give you guys a bone But right now it's sunny out and I need to saw some logs into lumber. Everybody has to have a hobby and my gaming hobby long ago turned into work, so it doesn't help me relax like a good hobby should 36 minutes ago, Raptorx7 said: I still have to make my obligatory "Combat Mission would be more popular if it was advertised more or offered on other websites" post. Ok, done. There, fixed that for you Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttorneyAtWar Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said: There, fixed that for you Steve I actually had that originally, but I felt like it implied that it wasn't THAT popular already Edited October 11, 2017 by Raptorx7 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 1 minute ago, Raptorx7 said: I actually had that originally, but I felt like it implied that it wasn't THAT popular already Well, it isn't that popular if you consider that probably 1 in a 1,000,000 gamers out there would find CM more exciting than watching paint dry The key to successful marketing of a niche product is knowing that you have a niche product. And there's no shame in that! For example, Firefly is the best sci-fi spaceship centric show in the know verse Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 1 hour ago, patrykd said: Hi Steve. Please tell us something about CM Road to Rome. Steve promised to prepare a bone for us. That's enough for this moment. Please let's wait for that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 2 hours ago, Bud Backer said: 3 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said: We're predators, all of us. Hardly that. Well, not all of you. Right. Quite a few of you are prey. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 10 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said: Right. Quite a few of you are prey. Michael How old were you again, Michael? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Just now, Aragorn2002 said: How old were you again, Michael? Going on 74. Happy now? And I think that is evidence that I do know a few things about not becoming extinct. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Backer Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 22 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said: Right. Quite a few of you are prey. Michael Brilliant! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grunt_GI Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 47 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said: Well, it isn't that popular if you consider that probably 1 in a 1,000,000 gamers out there would find CM more exciting than watching paint dry The key to successful marketing of a niche product is knowing that you have a niche product. And there's no shame in that! For example, Firefly is the best sci-fi spaceship centric show in the know verse Steve Oh yes, yes it is...and we all aim to misbehave. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 26 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said: Going on 74. Happy now? And I think that is evidence that I do know a few things about not becoming extinct. Michael And I salute you for that, Michael. I really do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger73 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 4 hours ago, Battlefront.com said: <snipped> Yes, and for sure we are guilty of having our heads buried in work and not remembering how much time has gone by since the last bone. Especially now that Chris isn't around to remind me! I'll work out something to present to you guys soon. <snipped> Steve @Battlefront.com If you need a volunteer to ping you every 30 days from a last previous update, please let me know . . . Based upon your comment about a forthcoming bone tonight, I am happy to pencil in 11am 11-November as "Ping Battlefront Day". Veterans Day seems quite apt for that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdeath Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Did someone say bone? *drools* 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xorg_Xalargsky Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 The word "bone" on this forum is the ultimate dog-whistle. I'm sure we have dozens of people furiously mashing F5 while the supper is burning. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Bennett Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 6 hours ago, Battlefront.com said: Correct. Our personal interests by definition narrow down the field of possible options to pursue. However, we also have to avoid doing things which do personally interest us because they don't have much chance of success. For example, I'm fascinated by the Axis Minor forces that fought on the Eastern Front. There's a reason why that stuff is in CM1 but not in CM2, and it has nothing to do with my personal interests. I think Axis Minor forces vs Soviets would make for a fun and interesting CM. I guess I'm in the minority with Steve on this. Really looking forward to Rome to Victory though and whatever else might be planned for WW2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BletchleyGeek Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Bud Backer said: I love teasers and bones and generally being given some idea of what may lie in store. Like all of you, I want to have some idea what to look forward to. It’s natural. But my experience in software development over the years has repeatedly demonstrated that no amount of information is ever sufficient. What starts with a well-intentioned small hint leads to demands for more information, which may not even exist as the product is still under development. Then the griping starts. Even worse, what one hints at today may end up being dropped or changed substantively, leading to more complaints. No matter how many times one indicates that something is a work-in-progress, expectations are formed, and disappointment is inevitable down the road. I’m no longer surprised at all that developers are cagey. I’ve seen people relentlessly complaining about something that was not developed almost 5 years after the initial speculative announcement that a particular feature was undergoing a feasibility study, not even a planned enhancement. None of this is limited to CM or Battlefront. I’ve seen this repeatedly on quite a number of developers forums over the years. I have a quite different take on that @Bud Backer As you say, this happens often, but I do see a clear pattern: 1) the roadmap presented to the users is the optimistic one, which is predicated on the assumption that every task is completed precisely according to plan and 2) rather than showing the outputs that follow from achieving milestones in the project plan, snippets of stuff in the process of getting there is shown instead. Getting the skills for communicating development processes right isn't an innate skill, but rather learned. Usually, the hard way. Case in point, go through the dev diaries of the new IL-2. Also, falling into the trap in 1) follows from the pursuit of funding via crowdfunding or pre-orders of stuff that may not happen. Star Citizen is probably the prototypical example for this. And of course, similar challenges exist on other industries, just without anybody taking the equivalent of electronic dumps on social media feeds. Let's remember that the wrecking of communication channels should not be tolerated by the community: allowing wrecking to go on a rampage unchecked reflects very poorly on that community, and it is indeed a digital tragedy of the commons. 6 hours ago, Battlefront.com said: Quote Even with my background as a number cruncher/economist by day, I have no idea how someone in Battlefront's position would analyse an evidence base to decide if a specific module of new game family is a worthwhile venture or not. Exactly! And what Battlefront evaluates and the conclusions it takes from it is likely very different than another games company. I firmly believe that the reason why niche products fail is not because there isn't a sufficient sized audience, it's because someone mismatched the economics. For example, last night my wife and I finished rewatching one of our favorite TV comedies. It made it 2 seasons. Why? Because the network they were on had higher expectations for audience size than the show was able to gather. One can blame the network or the show's creative team, but in the end the network didn't have what they needed for their economic model and the show's creative team didn't have an outlet that allowed their creativity to be expressed. It does not mean the network is stupid or the show was canceled because it sucked. The network expected a bigger audience and the show wasn't aimed for it. Using this TV show thing as an analogy, Battlefront (network) is scaled to support Combat Mission (TV show), not the other way around. Therefore, Battlefront behaves differently than a network that is geared for making money as its first priority. And that's a good thing for you guys Well, that's why I made my question regarding playing back the "Tape of Life". Any business decision involves risks, some of them can be predicted, some just cannot be. Creative industries (and research which is mine, is one which lies somewhere halfway between artistic endeavours like yours and more utilitarian ones) come with their own peculiarities (personalities, cultural issues like the disregard of baselines, etc.), but they're still bound by the limitations imposed upon us by the laws of physics that prevent us to simulate precisely the outcomes of our decisions by doing crazy stuff and travelling back in time if we don't like the results. Sometimes, as you said Steve, it is because sensible precautions aren't taken or reality checks performed, that is, past experience is swept aside due to whatever reason. That usually happens when senior staff departs or is sidetracked. Sometimes too, we end up eating our own astroturf, so to speak, or worse, we sell the astroturf too well. Often there's stuff that happens due to sheer chance. What if that creative team had been contacted first by a network that actually had realistic economic expectations, but didn't because somebody broke a leg and couldn't go to work for a couple fortnights. Those things happen. And last, some risks cannot be fathomed until you dip into the water. Case in point, your little foray into mobile gaming. Am I wrong guessing that the economics of the Android (or worse even, Apple) app stores weren't awesome? Shenandoah Studios unluckily got on that horse all the way and cheered by a number of fawning commentators, and went down the drain, being bought wholesale by Slitherine. What I mean is that without your tenure in Impressions, and your careful observation of others' failures, Battlefront wouldn't be where it is now. Probably because you would have to get these outcomes yourself directly in order to acquire that knowledge, and as you say, second chances are rare (not in my field, since sh*t doesn't stick). Note that I am not demeaning your achievements, or those of Charles and the rest of individuals who have been part of your crew over the years: those shipwrecks we were reminiscing were public and well mapped, it's down to the intelligence and prudence of the navigators to sail around those known hazards. What all this discussion makes evident is that with the departure of Chris, the community has lost a hotline with the development process, and I would hope someone, or a group of someones, rise up to the challenge to take up that aspect of Chris' work. Expecting Steve to cover all the bases (web site maintenance, forum moderation, community engagement, data curator, accountant?, and who knows what else) isn't reasonable. Edited October 11, 2017 by BletchleyGeek Edited for style and clarity, thanks Ian and SBurke for the kind comments - communicating thoughts in a clear and civilised manner requires some effort. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttorneyAtWar Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, BletchleyGeek said: @Bud Backer What all this discussion makes evident is that with the departure of Chris, the community has lost a hotline with the development process, and I would hope someone, or a group of someones, rise up to the challenge to take up that aspect of Chris' work. Expecting Steve to cover all the bases (web site maintenance, forum moderation, community engagement, data curator, accountant?, and who knows what else) isn't reasonable. Yeah having Chris leave was very sudden and kind of cryptic, we didn't know he was gone until a month or two after. I hope he comes back eventually, until then it would be nice to have someone like a beta tester to provide a bit of community outreach for Battlefront. Edited October 11, 2017 by Raptorx7 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinaldi Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Well they made it clear that Chris is under some kind of stress, and I'm not inclined to ask after it further for a multitude of reasons. He was definitely a young, fresh face for the brand (twitch and all). So its definitely a loss; but I'll keep to wishing him well and hoping all the best for him. He'll do well wherever life takes him, I'm sure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtsjc1 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I enjoyed Chris' twitch gameplay. Hope he's ok and we see him again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 4 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said: I have a quite different take on that @Bud Backer As you say, this happens often, but I do see a clear pattern: 1) the roadmap presented to the users is the optimistic one, which is predicated on the assumption that every task is completed precisely according to plan and 2) rather than showing the outputs that follow from achieving milestones in the project plan, snippets of stuff in the process of getting there is shown instead. True, some things garner more pressure from customers than others. But Bud is basically correct. If I announced today that we are creating an entirely new wargame, totally separate from Combat Mission, and it will be released in 2022... what do you think would happen 2.351 seconds later and continually for the next few weeks? More demand for information than I would have to give, that's for sure! And the pressure for more and more information would get worse every time I did anything to answer the previous demands for information. It is a no-win situation so we've long, long, LONG ago learned to keep our mouths shut until we have something nearly done. It's better for everybody Oh, and no... what I just used as an example is not a bone Quote Getting the skills for communicating development processes right isn't an innate skill, but rather learned. Usually, the hard way. Case in point, go through the dev diaries of the new IL-2. Also, falling into the trap in 1) follows from the pursuit of funding via crowdfunding or pre-orders of stuff that may not happen. Star Citizen is probably the prototypical example for this. Like so many things in life, when something "new" comes up it's often not all that new. What you're talking about is the old industry practice of "advances" from a publisher to a developer. While the developer is hard at work spending the advances on production, the publisher is out there promoting the game way before it's appropriate to. Expectations go up accordingly. The publisher responds to pressure and tries to mark things out on a calendar for the customers, which puts even more pressure on the developer. Dates might be hit, but they are more likely to be missed or a compromised product is released instead of readjusting the timetable. Too often the developers burn through all their money and can't afford to make another game without going through the same Hell. But they won't get the funding if their previous release isn't up to expectations. Which is to say, the system of funding and expectations tip the scales in favor of a bad outcome. Crowd funding is almost identical to this except now the customers are the ones forking over the advances. If customers of the past acted like an entitled group, the crowd funders must be intolerable! BTW, this is a good example of customers (mostly with good intentions) pushing us to do something that isn't very smart. Yup, we've had customers say "hey, why don't you use Kickstarter? You could get the money you need to make the games we want and make them faster! I bet you could raise millions this way!". Sorry, no. Not a good idea at all. Quote And of course, similar challenges exist on other industries, just without anybody taking the equivalent of electronic dumps on social media feeds. Let's remember that the wrecking of communication channels should not be tolerated by the community: allowing wrecking to go on a rampage unchecked reflects very poorly on that community, and it is indeed a digital tragedy of the commons. Yup, and this is causing a lot of strife within Steam. It's one of the reasons we're still not on Steam. In fact, recent attention brought to the problems of Steam's lack of interest in protecting developers from increasingly malicious members is one reason we (again) iced all thoughts of going on Steam. The prospects of financial success with Steam are not good, the chances of financial harm are decent. The chances of being miserable on Steam is foreseen as inevitable. Quote Sometimes, as you said Steve, it is because sensible precautions aren't taken or reality checks performed, that is, past experience is swept aside due to whatever reason. That usually happens when senior staff departs or is sidetracked. Institutional knowledge can be a safety check, but it can also cause decline because "this is always the way we've done it" doesn't work so well long term. Just ask IBM Quote And last, some risks cannot be fathomed until you dip into the water. Case in point, your little foray into mobile gaming. Am I wrong guessing that the economics of the Android (or worse even, Apple) app stores weren't awesome? Shenandoah Studios unluckily got on that horse all the way and cheered by a number of fawning commentators, and went down the drain, being bought wholesale by Slitherine. Heh... I know a bit of inside information about the latter. Putting all of one's eggs in one basket is a big mistake. That is why we were cautious to follow up CM Touch, even though we REALLY wanted to (CMT did quite well). We weren't willing to risk the things we know make us money for the things that might make us money. Oh, believe me we really got into this a while ago. I have multiple game designs which could have done some amazing things for Battlefront. Or they could have bombed horribly and caused us to go out of business. Who knows What we do know is the mobile gaming market is toxic now and we aren't interested in getting into it at all except as companion apps for Combat Mission. Nothing in the works right now, but there ideas on the table that are waiting for the right circumstances. Quote What I mean is that without your tenure in Impressions, and your careful observation of others' failures, Battlefront wouldn't be where it is now. Probably because you would have to get these outcomes yourself directly in order to acquire that knowledge, and as you say, second chances are rare (not in my field, since sh*t doesn't stick). Note that I am not demeaning your achievements, or those of Charles and the rest of individuals who have been part of your crew over the years: those shipwrecks we were reminiscing were public and well mapped, it's down to the intelligence and prudence of the navigators to sail around those known hazards. Shipwrecks are a good analogy, but so is a minefield. If there's a little sign that says "mines" right next to a bloody stump sticking out of a boot... it's not smart to think "yeah, but I'm smarter than that guy" and go trodding around the area like you have a birthright to be there. BTW, we also watched Avalon Hill (second iteration) implode, which gave us a bunch of different examples of what not to do from Impressions/Sierra. Quote What all this discussion makes evident is that with the departure of Chris, the community has lost a hotline with the development process, and I would hope someone, or a group of someones, rise up to the challenge to take up that aspect of Chris' work. Expecting Steve to cover all the bases (web site maintenance, forum moderation, community engagement, data curator, accountant?, and who knows what else) isn't reasonable. We're working on it Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 did I miss the bone? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 3 hours ago, Raptorx7 said: Yeah having Chris leave was very sudden and kind of cryptic, we didn't know he was gone until a month or two after. I hope he comes back eventually, until then it would be nice to have someone like a beta tester to provide a bit of community outreach for Battlefront. Cryptic because, honestly, customers have zero entitlement to the details of employees in an organization. Customers sometimes deserve some sort of notification, but nothing more. You guys were alerted to Chris' departure something like 2 weeks after it happened. I don't see anything reasonable to complain about. Testers are ALWAYS doing customer outreach of various sorts. Not like Chris, for sure, but definitely you guys are not being ignored. Testers brought me to this thread, for example 2 hours ago, jtsjc1 said: I enjoyed Chris' twitch gameplay. Hope he's ok and we see him again. I exchanged emails with him on Friday and I did say "hi" from all you guys He knows he's missed, but working an intense job for a virtual company probably isn't in the cards for him any time soon. As I said in my explanation about his departure, most people are not wired to do this sort of work at all, few can do it for more than a few years before they burn out. Chris went 5 years, which puts him in a special group of people even though he also hit the virtual wall. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BletchleyGeek Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 25 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said: Like so many things in life, when something "new" comes up it's often not all that new. What you're talking about is the old industry practice of "advances" from a publisher to a developer. While the developer is hard at work spending the advances on production, the publisher is out there promoting the game way before it's appropriate to. Expectations go up accordingly. The publisher responds to pressure and tries to mark things out on a calendar for the customers, which puts even more pressure on the developer. Dates might be hit, but they are more likely to be missed or a compromised product is released instead of readjusting the timetable. Too often the developers burn through all their money and can't afford to make another game without going through the same Hell. But they won't get the funding if their previous release isn't up to expectations. Which is to say, the system of funding and expectations tip the scales in favor of a bad outcome. Crowd funding is almost identical to this except now the customers are the ones forking over the advances. If customers of the past acted like an entitled group, the crowd funders must be intolerable! This is a very insightful comment, Steve. Thanks for sharing it. Crowdfunding isn't a money tree you walk up to, shake it a bit and walk back home. Those trees aren't trees, they are ents. Pissing off ents isn't a clever move, is it? More seriously, it has certainly lowered the barriers of entry into the business. That I think is a good thing. On the other hand, what were countless cancelled projects that nobody got to see (like Fallout Van Buren, Obsidians' Aliens RPG, etc), other than furtive glimpses due to occasional leaks by journos or former developers, are now what is called "crowdfunding failures" and happen in plain sight. The drama comes from the backers who, lacking the mechanisms for retribution that publishers have, turn out to other means to get back their due (morally, I supposed). It's not easy to make crowdfunding work. If the people in charge of the crowdfunding campaign and the engagement with those stakeholders are industry old hands with a track record of being professional, things are mostly kept in hand. Harebrained Schemes - the company - being probably the foremost example that comes to mind of people who know how to use this system of crowdfunded advances without it getting out of hand. 44 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said: Putting all of one's eggs in one basket is a big mistake. That is why we were cautious to follow up CM Touch, even though we REALLY wanted to (CMT did quite well). Yes, that was apparent from seeing the figures on the Google Play store. 45 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said: I have multiple game designs which could have done some amazing things for Battlefront. Or they could have bombed horribly and caused us to go out of business. Who knows What we do know is the mobile gaming market is toxic now and we aren't interested in getting into it at all except as companion apps for Combat Mission. I know you guys are Friends of the Apple, but truly it is a Poisoned one. Looking forward to the bone! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Note to all... I reorganized all the Combat Mission Forums and made a Bone post in the new Combat Mission General Discussion area. I planned on doing it months ago, but this thread prompted me to get off my duff and do it. I hate to reward complainers, but sometimes they do have a point Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 2 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said: This is a very insightful comment, Steve. Thanks for sharing it. No problem! Like I said, I feel an obligation to help our customers understand this crazy business a bit better, especially how it relates to us. Unfortunately, some don't listen very well... but the majority of you do so it's worth it. Quote Yes, that was apparent from seeing the figures on the Google Play store. It was even more apparent seeing the Apple App Store figures We took in as much money from CMT as we did CMRT's first year of sales, and most of it came from iOS not Android. Downside was most of the revenue went to the developer of CMT and the two platforms. The upside was we had proportionally less invested in it, which is why we were so happy with CMT. Unfortunately, a combination of market shifts have made it inadvisable to try again. The bar for app makers is very low. That wouldn't be a problem if Apple, Google, Steam, etc. had a way for "serious" developers to not get drowned out by crap made by kids or shameless hacks. The number of games put out on those platforms in 2017 was counted in the several THOUSANDS! Yuck. When I started doing this it was more like 100-200 per year. Quote I know you guys are Friends of the Apple, but truly it is a Poisoned one. Been using a Mac since 1987 and PCs since before then. Still see no reason to abandon it. I don't have a smartphone of any sort. US Celluar will have to pry my flip phone out of my cold dead hand before I tether myself to a handheld soul sucking device. In fact, I'd run over my Mac with my tractor if I could. In my former life I'm sure I was a Luddite Quote Looking forward to the bone! Posted! Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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