• Announcements

    • Battlefront.com

      Special Upgrade 4 Tech Tips   12/27/2016

      Hi all! Now that Upgrade 4 is out and about in large quantities we have now discovered a few SNAFUs that happen out in the scary, real world that is home computing.  Fortunately the rate of problems is extremely small and so far most are easily worked around.  We've identified a few issues that have similar causes which we have clear instructions for work arounds here they are: 1.  CMRT Windows customers need to re-license their original key.  This is a result of improvements to the licensing system which CMBN, CMBS, and CMFB are already using.  To do this launch CMRT with the Upgrade and the first time enter your Engine 4 key.  Exit and then use the "Activate New Products" shortcut in your CMRT folder, then enter your Engine 3 license key.  That should do the trick. 2.  CMRT and CMBN MacOS customers have a similar situation as #2, however the "Activate New Products" is inside the Documents folder in their respective CM folders.  For CMBN you have to go through the process described above for each of your license keys.  There is no special order to follow. 3.  For CMBS and CMFB customers, you need to use the Activate New Products shortcut and enter your Upgrade 4 key.  If you launch the game and see a screen that says "LICENSE FAILURE: Base Game 4.0 is required." that is an indication you haven't yet gone through that procedure.  Provided you had a properly functioning copy before installing the Upgrade, that should be all you need to do.  If in the future you have to install from scratch on a new system you'll need to do the same procedure for both your original license key and your Upgrade 4.0 key. 4.  There's always a weird one and here it is.  A few Windows users are not getting "Activate New Products" shortcuts created during installation.  Apparently anti-virus software is preventing the installer from doing its job.  This might not be a problem right now, but it will prove to be an issue at some point in the future.  The solution is to create your own shortcut using the following steps: Disable your anti-virus software before you do anything. Go to your Desktop, right click on the Desktop itself, select NEW->SHORTCUT, use BROWSE to locate the CM EXE that you are trying to fix. The location is then written out. After it type in a single space and then paste this:

      -showui

      Click NEXT and give your new Shortcut a name (doesn't matter what). Confirm that and you're done. Double click on the new Shortcut and you should be prompted to license whatever it is you need to license. At this time we have not identified any issues that have not been worked around.  Let's hope it stays that way Steve
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
DMS

Suggestion to Soviet TO&E adjustment

32 posts in this topic

As new module is coming, I would post some suggestions about Soviet rifle TO.

1) I've found out that since 1943 in Soviet rifle companies 1 platoon of 3 was armed with SMGs, with exception to machiengunners and snipers.

This is a scan of rifle TO&E  4/550, 1943:

328865_original.jpg

There is written:

"Один взвод вооружается пистолетами-пулеметами за исключением снайперов и наводчиков, в количестве 23 автомата"

"One platoon is armed with SMGs with exception of snipers and gunners, in number of 23 SMG"

And this is proved by many other documents, (summer 1943) where is described experience of using SMG platoon, supply problems, tactical suggerstions e.t.c. "Avtomatchiki" should infiltrate in enemy positions and suddenly attack from flank or rear, in short.

2) In the late period of war rifle units didn't have enough personell, so reduced TO&E were in use. In that scan above you can see that rifle platoon had 28 men. PL, assistant, 2 snipers and 3 squads. In squad: leader, gunner - leader assistant, gunner assistant, 5 riflemen, 8 men in total.

3) Actually number of SVT rifles was low, According to TO&E each rifleman must have SVT, but in fact since 1942 production number was very low, so realistic number would 1 per squad with 50% probability or so, May be for №2 in sniper team, By the way, second man in sniper team also should have a "marksman" skill, (As you see in scan above, there is 2 snipers) He should have a scoped rifle also, but in fact there were not enough scoped rifles, so snipers used usual rifles, chosen for better accuracy.

 

So what do you think about this? There is suprisingly few Russian sources about Soviet TOs, may be I missed something. Let's discuss it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, DMS said:

 

I just hope BF fixes the Standard Inf Squad to have around 2x SMG, 1x LMG, 1x SVT 5x Rifles (Front Line Bolt Rifle Nagant's by late 43-44' should be the slightly shorter version)...As it stands now, it's just a mix of to many Auto's with only 1-2 Bolt Rifles.

Yes, Soviet would have 1x Scoped Rifle and 1x Marksman Rifle per Platoon would be suffice...In contrast the Germans would have 1x Sniper per Company with 1x Marksman per Platoon.

Edited by JoMc67

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

I just hope BF fixes the Standard Inf Squad to have around 2x SMG, 1x LMG, 1x SVT 5x Rifles (Front Line Bolt Rifle Nagant's by late 43-44' should be the slightly shorter version)...As it stands now, it's just a mix of to many Auto's with only 1-2 Bolt Rifles.

Yes, Soviet would have 1x Scoped Rifle and 1x Marksman Rifle per Platoon would be suffice...In contrast the Germans would have 1x Sniper per Company with 1x Marksman per Platoon.

Well, if 1 platoon in rifle company get SMGs instead of rifles, there are even more auto weapons. :)

If SMG max range wouldn't be limited by 200 metres... IRL PPSh's were used up to 300m.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wish the game differentiated between range and effective range. PPSh might be best out to 200, but let my guys open up at 300 if they need to with less accuracy and stopping power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SMG's used to fire at longer rage but players complained that they were wasting ammo and didn't want the SMG's to fire out of effective range.  So, BF changed that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

SMG's used to fire at longer rage but players complained that they were wasting ammo and didn't want the SMG's to fire out of effective range.  So, BF changed that.

Yes, I actually think BF should just Just go ahead and make all SMG's have a Max Range 250 meters, but with effective range at 100 meters...(100 meters SMG fire at regular intervals, outside that fire at slower irregular intervals).

Edited by JoMc67

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, DougPhresh said:

I wish the game differentiated between range and effective range. PPSh might be best out to 200, but let my guys open up at 300 if they need to with less accuracy and stopping power.

As a practical matter, it does in all cases outside of SMGs. Shooting with nothing but Kar98s or Garlands at five hundred meters is not generally a winning strategy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone made the point that in CM games it usually seems like "why aren't all troops equipped with smg's?" since LOS ranges are generally low due to map size.  However, in RL most engagements were at longer ranges 400m+ so in RL rifles were more valuable in most cases.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Someone made the point that in CM games it usually seems like "why aren't all troops equipped with smg's?" since LOS ranges are generally low due to map size.  However, in RL most engagements were at longer ranges 400m+ so in RL rifles were more valuable in most cases.

Well... Bolt action rifle at 400m+ is much better than SMG, but is not effective also. Semi-auto is better, but not much. Machiengun is decisive weapon.

By the way, 7,62x25 was closest to intermediate catridges: 7,62x39, 7,92x33, .30 Carbine. Trajectory is not higher than 0,5 m up to 200-250m. So PPSh was not a typical SMG.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Erwin said:

Someone made the point that in CM games it usually seems like "why aren't all troops equipped with smg's?" since LOS ranges are generally low due to map size.  However, in RL most engagements were at longer ranges 400m+ so in RL rifles were more valuable in most cases.

Oh, and which games are these?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point was that almost all CM2 games feature maps which are smaller than what was normal in CM1.  As a result, map designers generally restrict LOS so that it's rare to get long range combat opportunities.  In these scenarios where ranges are in the 100m-300m range, SMG's are most useful.  If this were true in RL all RL inf units would have a much higher % of SMG's.  It has been pointed out in other treads however that in RL, most combat is at longer ranges, so rifles are more useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A 1943 platoon had how many people in each squad then? And did they use the 2 lmg squads like in the game?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

28 minutes ago, Ts4EVER said:

A 1943 platoon had how many people in each squad then? And did they use the 2 lmg squads like in the game?

This is штат 4/550 (TO&E 4/550), 10.12.42 (not reduced)

40 men in platoon. Platoon leader, assistant, 2 snipers, 4 squads. Each squad 9 men.

2 squads with 2 MGs and 1 SMG, 2 squads with 1 MG and 2 SMGs, In the game all is correct. With the exception of SMG platoon, though 2 variants are possible, I guess. (With SMG platoon and without, like in the game now) I think some units could ignore changes because of supply reasons,

Edited by DMS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks. I wonder if the second MGs in those squads were sometimes in short supply and they used the AVT40 instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I think 100% equiped units with 6 MGs per platoon were rare.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 8/1/2017 at 7:24 AM, JoMc67 said:

I just hope BF fixes the Standard Inf Squad to have around 2x SMG, 1x LMG, 1x SVT 5x Rifles (Front Line Bolt Rifle Nagant's by late 43-44' should be the slightly shorter version)...

Eh...no. :) First off, it's the Mosin-Nagant. A Nagant is a revolver. Secondly, M91/30s were the main battle rifle for the entirety of the war. The M38 was for second-line troops and heavy weapons teams, while the M44 didn't come into general use until late '44 or so. It never supplanted the 91/30. 

Edited by LukeFF

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I think the M91/30 never fell out of use. I'm a developer for the Forgotten Hope 2 Mod and when we did our Eastern Front expansion, we decided to only put the M44 on our 1945 map.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 8/3/2017 at 1:46 PM, Erwin said:

The point was that almost all CM2 games feature maps which are smaller than what was normal in CM1.  As a result, map designers generally restrict LOS so that it's rare to get long range combat opportunities.  In these scenarios where ranges are in the 100m-300m range, SMG's are most useful.  If this were true in RL all RL inf units would have a much higher % of SMG's.  It has been pointed out in other treads however that in RL, most combat is at longer ranges, so rifles are more useful.

So, why don't you help fill in that gap you always like to bring up and give us some larger maps and scenarios to play with?

Edited by LukeFF

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh look!!  Great... more LukeFF vs Erwin posts to sift through again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was simply responding to someone's else's comment to explain why our CM2 games seem to favor SMG's when longer range rifles are what used to be used more commonly.  

Sorry that these forums are not your personal playpen.  Why don't you take your attitude and go play with the other kindergarteners.  Oh... you probably already have...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Erwin said:

I was simply responding to someone's else's comment to explain why our CM2 games seem to favor SMG's when longer range rifles are what used to be used more commonly.  

Sorry that these forums are not your personal playpen.  Why don't you take your attitude and go play with the other kindergarteners.  Oh... you probably already have...

Don't you do a bunch of playtesting anyway?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:lol:   Yeah... playtesting to destruction.   Getting a bit irritable in my old age...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/1/2017 at 7:06 PM, DMS said:

So what do you think about this? There is suprisingly few Russian sources about Soviet TOs, may be I missed something. Let's discuss it.

The strange things is that CMBB had this already, in the Soviet Rifle Battalion 44B, infantry force type:

 

sov rifle bn 44B.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 08.08.2017 at 5:32 PM, Apocal said:

The strange things is that CMBB had this already, in the Soviet Rifle Battalion 44B, infantry force type:

 

Variant "A" without SMG platoon and variant "B" with. Great! Did SMG squads have snipers and MGs?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, DMS said:

Variant "A" without SMG platoon and variant "B" with. Great! Did SMG squads have snipers and MGs?

 

Nope. Nine submachine gunners and four more submachinegunners in the HQ team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0