Must read info on several gunnery tests vs Panther (see esp. British APDS accuracy)

[John Kettler]

This is a most useful thread which collects in one place the results of a number of live fire tests, using a variety of Allied antitank weapons. All kinds of exciting things here, particularly if you read closely. For example, the tests found an M10 firing M62 w/ M66A1 B.F. couldn't pierce a Panther outside of 200 yard frontally. Accuracy was excellent, but the projectile was simply not up to dealing with a tank whose effective frontal armor was 187 mm (or was there a typo?), nearly twice that of a Tiger 1. The inaccuracy of 17 pdr APDS is simply staggering, so much so the British decided not to use it beyond 800 yards. Test after test showed the same sort of problem, and I truly hope BFC modeled what the live fire tests unmistakably demonstrated. Ref the M10, the decision was made HVAP was the only way to go. There are some pointed things said, too, about the Sherman's "hot gun" 76 mm, which turned out to be so disappointing Ike went off about it.

https://worldoftanks.com/en/news/chieftain/chieftains-hatch-us-guns-vs-german-armour-part-1/

Regards,

John Kettler

[DesertFox]

Good info!

IIRC CMx1 and CMx2 development was supported by counsel from Lorrin Rexford Bird and Robert D. Livingston who published on the subject:

WWII Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery, Overmach Press Lorrin Rexford Bird and Robert D. Livingston, Second Edition, 2001

https://de.scribd.com/doc/219173969/WWII-Ballistics-Armor-and-Gunnery

or

https://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3ALorrin Rexford. Bird

or

http://vk.com/doc67707672_338610150?hash=22e03378f78ea04905&dl=958ae1a9265ab60d1b

Also it seems they both have accounts here:

To which depth detailed test results from 1944 Balleroy or Isigny were cross checked with CM outcome only the devs can answer.

It is my personal impression however that CM outcome seems to be in the "right ballpark" or "feels" right.

cheers

 

 

 

 

[DesertFox]

Related to the subject of allied performance against the Panther I suggest reading this article on the 1944 Panther battlefield performance in front of the canadian forces.

Destroying the Panthers: The Effect of Allied Combat Action on I./SS Panzer Regiment 12 in Normandy, 1944

Authors

Arthur Gullachsen

Abstract

This article is an examination of the operational record of the World War Two German Panther tank during the Normandy Campaign of summer 1944. Challenging its perception as mechanically unreliable, this article argues Allied combat action was responsible for a large percentage of Panthers that were out of action. Secondly, the inferior resources of the German tank replacement and repair program were no match for superior Canadian Army practices during 1944. To support these arguments the author examines Canadian and German wartime primary documents as well as multiple secondary sources.

Recommended Citation

Gullachsen, Arthur (2016) "Destroying the Panthers: The Effect of Allied Combat Action on I./SS Panzer Regiment 12 in Normandy, 1944," Canadian Military History: Vol. 25 : Iss. 2 , Article 13.

Available at: http://scholars.wlu.ca/cmh/vol25/iss2/13

Article here:

http://scholars.wlu.ca/cmh/vol25/iss2/13/

 

[Apocal]

This is good stuff. World of Tanks has done more to put armor -- and WW2 armor specifically -- into the public consciousness than probably all the books published and movies released in the last thirty years. Then they follow up with articles like this, not groundbreaking but easy reading, well-sourced and informative. Doing the Lord's work.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Great article, that's more like it!