V4.0 Hull Down question

[axxe]

I haven't upgraded to 4.0 yet, but I've been reading about the new Hull Down command.

Question: How do I (can I?) use Hull Down with a target arc at the final waypoint?  Seems like if I choose a Hull Down waypoint, then set an area target from that waypoint (which should cause Hull Down to stop movement when the vehicle is hull down to the target point), then I have no way to, for example, give a target armor arc for that final hull down waypoint.  Is that right, or am I missing something?

Is this a case of needing to use Hull Down without an area target on the final waypoint? 

[StieliAlpha]

1 hour ago, axxe said:

I haven't upgraded to 4.0 yet, but I've been reading about the new Hull Down command.

Question: How do I (can I?) use Hull Down with a target arc at the final waypoint?  Seems like if I choose a Hull Down waypoint, then set an area target from that waypoint (which should cause Hull Down to stop movement when the vehicle is hull down to the target point), then I have no way to, for example, give a target armor arc for that final hull down waypoint.  Is that right, or am I missing something?

Is this a case of needing to use Hull Down without an area target on the final waypoint? 

There was a similar discussion a while ago. IIRC, the answer is: You have to select a target and path. The tank will then stop in a hull down position relative to that target.

I.e., to move into hull down with a target arc won't work, since no position is defined, to which your tank shall be "hull down". Imagine you set a 180deg arc, your tank might be "hull down" to the front, but probably not to the flanks.

You can move, of course, move into a hull down position and then set a target arc. But then you have the above situation again. The tank will be "hull down" to one point, but probably not to others.

Edited July 21, 2017 by StieliAlpha

[Bil Hardenberger]

2 hours ago, axxe said:

I haven't upgraded to 4.0 yet, but I've been reading about the new Hull Down command.

Question: How do I (can I?) use Hull Down with a target arc at the final waypoint?  Seems like if I choose a Hull Down waypoint, then set an area target from that waypoint (which should cause Hull Down to stop movement when the vehicle is hull down to the target point), then I have no way to, for example, give a target armor arc for that final hull down waypoint.  Is that right, or am I missing something?

Is this a case of needing to use Hull Down without an area target on the final waypoint? 

Hull Down is described here:  http://battledrill.blogspot.com/2013/09/movement-technique-005-hull-down.html

You can use Hunt for the final waypoint, but be aware that your tank can stop short of actually being hull down... or with your gun blocked from getting a good firing solution, so there are pros and cons with Hunt.  What Hunt will NOT do is stop your tank just because it can target the area you have selected... it will only stop movement on enemy contact, either visual, or from incoming fire.

You can indeed set a target arc on the final waypoint.. see my link above, I have also described this many times in my AARs.  You want to use the target command from your final waypoint to check hull down status (as shown in my link) and then set your target arc as desired.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Bil Hardenberger

[domfluff]

The situations where I've used the new Hull Down command most effectively have all been with an area target. You put a Hull Down waypoint slightly further than you think you'll need to go (so a mistake here won't cost you too much), then an area target from that waypoint to the area you want to be hull down to.

The area target does *not* cause the tank to fire at that point, it's just used for the purposes of the hull down command as a reference point.

I haven't experimented too much with chaining commands after this point, but in a one minute turn that is usually enough. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by domfluff

[Bil Hardenberger]

20 minutes ago, domfluff said:

The situations where I've used the new Hull Down command most effectively have all been with an area target. You put a Hull Down waypoint slightly further than you think you'll need to go (so a mistake here won't cost you too much), then an area target from that waypoint to the area you want to be hull down to.

The area target does *not* cause the tank to fire at that point, it's just used for the purposes of the hull down command as a reference point.

I haven't experimented too much with chaining commands after this point, but in a one minute turn that is usually enough. 

It wasn't clear to me whether the question was about the 4.0 Hull Down command or Hull Down in general, as the OP doesn't have 4.0... <shrug>

I have yet to use the Hull Down command in 4.0... only now playing my first game with tanks since I came back from my long hiatus...  so interested in how it works.

[slysniper]

36 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I have yet to use the Hull Down command in 4.0... only now playing my first game with tanks since I came back from my long hiatus...  so interested in how it works.

Well, if you get it figured out as to how to get it doing what it should, give a demo.

I messed with it for a long while, thought I had it figured out, but still had it do unexpected things to me in the game.

Finally just gave up and used methods I can trust. So I would love to see it work like it is designed to do, but have yet to see that clearly.

[axxe]

1 hour ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

It wasn't clear to me whether the question was about the 4.0 Hull Down command or Hull Down in general, as the OP doesn't have 4.0... <shrug>

I have yet to use the Hull Down command in 4.0... only now playing my first game with tanks since I came back from my long hiatus...  so interested in how it works.

Sorry for not being more clear. I meant the new 4.0 Hull Down command, not achieving hull down via hunt.  Hull down via hunt I already know how to do thanks to your blog, Bil!  :-)

Edited July 21, 2017 by axxe

[MOS:96B2P]

The following is my basic Hull Down command drill.  To be modified to fit the current situation.

1. Give vehicle Open Up order. 

2. Place Hull Down waypoints on every action spot in the direction of the OpFor unit.  (When you are within several action spots of being hull down to a target.) 

3. Select first Hull Down waypoint that allows an Area Target on the OpFor action spot. 

4. Place a Target Briefly order from this waypoint to the OpFor action spot. 

5. Delete all subsequent waypoints. 

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, domfluff said:

The situations where I've used the new Hull Down command most effectively have all been with an area target. You put a Hull Down waypoint slightly further than you think you'll need to go (so a mistake here won't cost you too much), then an area target from that waypoint to the area you want to be hull down to.

The area target does *not* cause the tank to fire at that point, it's just used for the purposes of the hull down command as a reference point.

I haven't experimented too much with chaining commands after this point, but in a one minute turn that is usually enough. 

This is the method I use - and I have also not added commands after the hull down command

 

41 minutes ago, slysniper said:

Well, if you get it figured out as to how to get it doing what it should, give a demo.

I messed with it for a long while, thought I had it figured out, but still had it do unexpected things to me in the game.

Finally just gave up and used methods I can trust. So I would love to see it work like it is designed to do, but have yet to see that clearly.

Bummer - I have used it the way @domfluff describes to great effect. I really like the command and use it lots. In fact the Sherman that scored the last PzIV kill in our game was positioned using the hull down command the right behind where your tank drove up.

 

23 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

The following is my basic Hull Down command drill.  To be modified to fit the current situation.

1. Give vehicle Open Up order. 

2. Place Hull Down waypoints on every action spot in the direction of the OpFor unit.  (When you are within several action spots of being hull down to a target.) 

3. Select first Hull Down waypoint that allows an Area Target on the OpFor action spot. 

4. Place a Target Briefly order from this waypoint to the OpFor action spot. 

5. Delete all subsequent waypoints. 

Re #4 I believe but have not tested this personally a target command will be cancelled once the hull down position is found while the target briefly command will be executed once the hull down position is reached. That lets you control if the tank area fires or not.

I still typically only have on hull down command at the end of the other movement commands. If my first guess cannot get an area target on the desired area I just adjust the final way point and try again.

[A Canadian Cat]

4 hours ago, axxe said:

Question: How do I (can I?) use Hull Down with a target arc at the final waypoint? 

A couple of thoughts.

Starting with why do you want a target arc? My thoughts on target arcs is don't use them. The only exception is when you don't want a unit to fire. So, for example troops doing recon have short circular cover arcs so they don't start shooting at distant enemies. Infantry AT teams have a circular armour covered arc at a decent range for their AT weapon. That way they don't take low odds long shots and they don't start shooting at enemy infantry. Why would you want a tank to get into a hull down position and then not fire at the enemy?

There is an alternative way to perform hull down. I personally don't do this because its scary to me. The other way is to set the hull down move order way point at the location you want to be hull down to. So instead of setting a hull down move order just over the hill you set it over the hill down the slope and into the tree line. The tank is supposed to move along the path and find a hull down position relative to the end point. The reason I find it scary is because if it does not find a hull down position it will drive to the end which by definition is where you expect the enemy to be. But if you are OK with that adding a cover arc at the end might be respected when the tank stops. I never tried it - I only ever tested this method of hull down and I never tried adding covered arcs into the mix.

[axxe]

The situation I imagined was wanting to give my tank a Target Armor Arc. If I am moving up to a ridge and want to be hull down to an area but only open fire on armor.

It appears that the new Hulldown command basically removes the option to do any arc targeting on the final waypoint, either to restrict firing to only at armor, or using an arc to turn the turret. Obviously the old 3.0 ways of achieving hull down still works; I'm just trying to understand the new command. I'm downloading the 4.0 upgrade as we speak, so I can experiment for myself soon...

[MikeyD]

Hull Down is a movement command. Unpassable/difficult intervening ground will screw with attempts to use it. So you need to be selective when using the command. If something's not working in your attempts you might have hvy rocks, hvy forest or marsh terrain between you and the waypoint.

Hull Down doesn't make for a particularly good mid-firefight command. Because you're at a disadvantage maneuvering into LOS of an active enemy. They're going to spot you before you spot them. It works best as a preparatory command. You move your vehicle into a good position and then await the enemy's arrival.

One tricky thing about the hull down command is in order achieve proper hull-down position the waypoint isn't really targeting that actual patch of ground, its targeting aprox vehicle height above that patch of ground. Which means passing infantry may remain just outside of LOF because they're too short to spot. A tank is taller and would be spotted. When he enemy tank spots you sitting in hull-down it'll likely put a couple rounds into the intervening ground in an attempt to hit you.

 

Edited July 21, 2017 by MikeyD

[axxe]

30 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

One tricky thing about the hull down command is in order achieve proper hull-down position the waypoint isn't really targeting that actual patch of ground, its targeting aprox vehicle height above that patch of ground. Which means passing infantry may remain just outside of LOF because they're too short to spot. 

Presumably an AT gun is also too short to spot? Though they should not quite spot my turret, either.

Edited July 21, 2017 by axxe

[Bil Hardenberger]

3 hours ago, IanL said:

...

Starting with why do you want a target arc? My thoughts on target arcs is don't use them...

I hear that a lot on these forums... I must be the only person that uses covered arcs in armored combat.  I highly recommend them: the narrower the better if you KNOW where the enemy vehicle is sitting, wider if you only suspect its position, and don't use one at all if you have no clue... I find I often get a spot-to-fire advantage over my opponent with them.  

I could be wrong I suppose, and I know Charles has said it doesn't give any spotting advantage..  ymmv I guess, but I've had good luck with them so I will continue to use them. 

[MikeyD]

Oddly, hull down command works better with lesser vehicles than tanks. An mg Jeep with the line of fire just grazing the hilltop. In CMFI you can finally get some utility out of the darned AS42 Sahariana. In CMBS it works particularly well with remote weapons stations. There's nothing for the enemy to target except the gun itself.

[Vencini]

1 hour ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I hear that a lot on these forums... I must be the only person that uses covered arcs in armored combat.  I highly recommend them: the narrower the better if you KNOW where the enemy vehicle is sitting, wider if you only suspect its position, and don't use one at all if you have no clue... I find I often get a spot-to-fire advantage over my opponent with them.  

I could be wrong I suppose, and I know Charles has said it doesn't give any spotting advantage..  ymmv I guess, but I've had good luck with them so I will continue to use them. 

The manual says (three last lines on page 50) : " The target arc increases the chances that units will recognize and engage an enemy threat within the target area quickly."

There is a real "behind the scenes" bonus or is just focus the turret in one direction ?

Regards and sorry about the off topic

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I must be the only person that uses covered arcs in armored combat.  I highly recommend them

 

+1  I use em all the time as well.  Have been whinging at BF for years that the CM2 method of getting a covered arc is way inferior (need more clicks and takes more time) to the one click 180 degree arc that one could quickly do in CM1. 

When you have a company of turreted vehicles and you want em to point different places CM2 makes you do lots of clicks and waste time to accomplish that. 

BTW:  I found the automatic Hull Down system to be less than impressive.  I tried it a few times, and it seemed as if the tank would stop short BEFORE it was in position to shoot at an enemy.  I had to manually redo the hull-down based on the old method to get the desired position when the tank would fire at the target.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Erwin

[sttp]

6 minutes ago, Vencini said:

The manual says (three last lines on page 50) : " The target arc increases the chances that units will recognize and engage an enemy threat within the target area quickly."

There is a real "behind the scenes" bonus or is just focus the turret in one direction ?

Regards and sorry about the off topic

I used to think target arcs gave a spotting advantage, too. I'm still not 100% certain how that all breaks down. But I view that text you quoted as referring only to turreted vehicles, which can basically "face" and focus their attention in a different direction than they're moving or pointing. 

An infantry unit given a general face command vs that same unit with a target arc centered in the same direction... my impression from the forum is that there's no difference in time-to-spot. But I would love it if this was wrong and you could actually use arcs to force units to focus and decrease their spotting times.

 

[Erwin]

In CM1 there was an appreciable advantage to covered arcs and IIRC the CM1 manual was explicit that facing or covered arc was an advantage re spotting.

When CM2 came along IIRC we were told by BF that there was a "very small" advantage to facing or covered arc - the implication was that it wasn't something to bother about. 

So, if the manual now says that there is an appreciable advantage that could be another change in the CM2 system.

[A Canadian Cat]

2 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I hear that a lot on these forums... I must be the only person that uses covered arcs in armored combat.  I highly recommend them: the narrower the better if you KNOW where the enemy vehicle is sitting, wider if you only suspect its position, and don't use one at all if you have no clue...

The key word there is KNOW. How often do you know? There are times for sure. The issue I have is what you don't know. Given that target arcs for for preventing a unit from firing I usually don't want that.

 

2 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I find I often get a spot-to-fire advantage over my opponent with them.  

I could be wrong I suppose, and I know Charles has said it doesn't give any spotting advantage..  ymmv I guess, but I've had good luck with them so I will continue to use them. 

 

48 minutes ago, Vencini said:

The manual says (three last lines on page 50) : " The target arc increases the chances that units will recognize and engage an enemy threat within the target area quickly."

There is a real "behind the scenes" bonus or is just focus the turret in one direction ?

There is no behind the scenes bonus. None. But the spotting works in CM based on where the crew are facing. So, if you use a covered arc to turn a turret to face a direction other than straight forward it will change where the crew are looking.  THAT does influence the chances of spotting something. Therefore if you correctly determine where the enemy will be and make sure your people are looking in that direction things will go better for you.

 

29 minutes ago, Erwin said:

BTW:  I found the automatic Hull Down system to be less than impressive.  I tried it a few times, and it seemed as if the tank would stop short BEFORE it was in position to shoot at an enemy.  I had to manually redo the hull-down based on the old method to get the desired position when the tank would fire at the target.

That's to bad.  I use it regularly now and get good results the vast majority of the time.

 

26 minutes ago, sttp said:

I used to think target arcs gave a spotting advantage, too. I'm still not 100% certain how that all breaks down. But I view that text you quoted as referring only to turreted vehicles, which can basically "face" and focus their attention in a different direction than they're moving or pointing. 

An infantry unit given a general face command vs that same unit with a target arc centered in the same direction... my impression from the forum is that there's no difference in time-to-spot. But I would love it if this was wrong and you could actually use arcs to force units to focus and decrease their spotting times.

You are not wrong and facing and covered arcs are not magic tools to decrease spotting times. They are magic tools to get your guys to be looking the right way though. And *that* does help.

Your men spot based on what kind of optics or other assistive devices they have and what direction they are looking - compared with where the enemy are coming from. So facing and target arcs are important tools to direct your soldiers stance but they do not change what they spot and the do not prevent or alter their usual attempts at situational awareness. In other words even with an arc on they still look to their 6 and to their left and right from time to time.

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, MikeyD said:

Oddly, hull down command works better with lesser vehicles than tanks. <Snip>  In CMBS it works particularly well with remote weapons stations. There's nothing for the enemy to target except the gun itself.

Interesting. 

[MOS:96B2P]

6 hours ago, axxe said:

The situation I imagined was wanting to give my tank a Target Armor Arc. If I am moving up to a ridge and want to be hull down to an area but only open fire on armor.  <Snip> 

 

4 hours ago, axxe said:

Presumably an AT gun is also too short to spot? Though they should not quite spot my turret, either.

A year or so ago I learned the hard way, in a PBEM, that a vehicle with an Armored Target Arc will not fire on an AT gun (if the vehicle crew has low motivation it may disregard your order and fire).  Not sure what you were planning but just in case you were getting ready to repeat my mistake I thought I should mention it.    

[Michael Emrys]

3 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I could be wrong I suppose, and I know Charles has said it doesn't give any spotting advantage...

Not directly, I suppose, but if it is preventing your unit from being distracted by anything outside the arc, that might help.

Michael

[Sgt.Squarehead]

7 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I could be wrong I suppose, and I know Charles has said it doesn't give any spotting advantage..  ymmv I guess, but I've had good luck with them so I will continue to use them.

I use arcs too and they do seem to make a difference.....Perhaps while they don't give a bonus to the chance to spot, by reducing the observed area they decrease the time between 'spotting-rolls'?

Just a thought.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[A Canadian Cat]

9 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

 reducing the observed area they decrease the time between 'spotting-rolls'?

Nope. Close proximity does that not covered arcs.