CMRT Campaign: Zitadelle: Totenkopf's March to Prokhorovka

[dragonwynn]

2 hours ago, Erwin said:

Question re what players use as a SOP in a situation as depicted in Mission 1... 

The infantry units have 6 man squads, so you can only split them into teams once. 

Do you split 2 or 3 of the squads of one platoon to use the two man teams as Scouts?  (This means that this platoon's squads can no longer split into more teams.)

Or, do you split one squad from each platoon of the company to use as Scouts - thus leaving all platoons with the flexibility to split two of their squads into Assault or AT teams?

In addition what is the best use for the light MG's?  Do you keep them in the rear with the HMG's as additional support?  Or, keep the LMG's up front with the Scouts (since 2 men are harder to detect by a defender).  Or parcel them out to the platoon HQ's for additional support?

 

Also, am assuming that the safe areas cleared of minefields start in the blue setup areas, and one can project forwards to see the cleared avenues?  I only see one set of posts leading from the LHS blue set up areas and am not sure where the cleared area boundary is.

The cleared lanes through the mine fields do start in the blue setup areas. There are two boundaries to each lane, if you wander out of these boundaries you can expect to take casualities. In the real engagment the pioneers marked the lanes but probably with cloth or string or something similar. The posts were the best I could come up with what was available in the editor.

I had to use the aufklarung units as the core to elimnate the panzerfausts. These are only 6 man squads so I added a LMG team to each for additional firepower. In most of the defensive scenarios I have already split the teams ( 3 men each) but since each mission has a setup zone you can regroup them as desired.

[Erwin]

Ok, I found the left hand cleared route.  It was hard to see as it starts in the top right corner of the LHS setup zone while all the others continue off the top of each set-up zone. 

What did you use for poles BTW.  Looks pretty good.

Re the LMG's etc am really interested in how others split their units for scouting etc. and how they use their LMG's.  Sometimes am not sure how best to use the arsenals in the deployment.

Am also surprised that the flamethrower teams have binoculars.  Like, what for...?

BTW:  Did you design the Heart Of Darkness campaign for CMSF?  I can't recall who did that one.

[dragonwynn]

Yea not sure why they have binoculars. Yes Heart of Darkness is CMSF that I did a while back

[grunt_GI]

Oh, there were cleared areas through minefields?  

Seriously though, will look again...dark and stormy is tough to see for my old eyes...however, whatever I did, I didn't take too many casualties until I ran up against the (SPOILER) line of FWD OBSERVER posts.

So I probably should have split a couple of scouts and used them with a LMG...will also give that a try.  

The challenge I suspect will be getting the pioneers and flamethrowers into position...those guys move SLOW.

More observations later.

[Erwin]

yes..  dragonwynn cleverly used some posts to mark the cleared lanes.  Not sure where those posts came from.  Maybe telephone posts with the tops removed graphically??

I only played the first version of the first mission of Heart of Darkness and that was very good.  So very much looking forward to playing the final version of the campaign (as soon as my burn out has burned off). 

Seems like everything dragonwynn has produced has been xnt.

[dragonwynn]

1 hour ago, grunt_GI said:

Oh, there were cleared areas through minefields?  

Seriously though, will look again...dark and stormy is tough to see for my old eyes...however, whatever I did, I didn't take too many casualties until I ran up against the (SPOILER) line of FWD OBSERVER posts.

So I probably should have split a couple of scouts and used them with a LMG...will also give that a try.  

The challenge I suspect will be getting the pioneers and flamethrowers into position...those guys move SLOW.

More observations later.

Hehe yea it is tough to see them in the rain and dark. Now just imagine what that real grenadier felt like trying to feel his way through a narrow lane with death on either side

[Erwin]

I don't think these are spoilers, but I found that my troopers had a bad habit of meandering sideways across the posts and into the minefields.  Already lost a couple of Platoon HQ CO's and a couple troops. 

Also, I thought once the post line ended close to the objectives that was the end of the minefields.  So I started moving laterally - and ran into minefields and lost another guy.    Damn you sir!!  

[dragonwynn]

7 hours ago, Erwin said:

I don't think these are spoilers, but I found that my troopers had a bad habit of meandering sideways across the posts and into the minefields.  Already lost a couple of Platoon HQ CO's and a couple troops. 

Also, I thought once the post line ended close to the objectives that was the end of the minefields.  So I started moving laterally - and ran into minefields and lost another guy.    Damn you sir!!  

I found it best to use short move commands to keep the guys moving within the boundaries. The Russians had mined the entire approaches to their trenchline but once you get to the trenches on the crest you can fan out with out danger from the mines.

[Erwin]

Of course that is best.  But it's taken me 10 minutes to carefully scout close to the trenches and have no enemy contact of any kind (other than the mines) so far.  I got impatient and ordered the follow-up guys to run to catch up with the scouts.  My bad...  Impatience is always what gets one killed.

[Erwin]

***********  POSSIBLE SPOILERS ************

Took 15 minutes to get first contact with enemy troops in trenches.  5 minutes later most trenches are cleared.  I think it will be a simple matter to clean up and walk the flamers and/or engineers along the trenches and blow up the bunkers from the rear.  The on to the next objectives.

My strategy was to use one platoon from each "column" for the attack, leading with 2-man scouts.  Two scouts from each "column" walked up the sides of the mine-cleared avenues trying to flank each bunker position until they spotted enemy, or more usually, got killed.  One platoon from each "column" with engineers and supported by the MG's split and attacked towards the trenches on each side each bunker.  Left flank did well with very few casualties.  The center and right flank took the heavy casualties... although, half a dozen guys were blown up by mines prior to the assault cos they strayed into the mines or the mines continued after the warning posts stopped and my flanking attacks walked into mines. 

Germans have 49 KIA and 19 WIA so far (including a flamer team and a couple engineer teams).  Russians have 40 KIA and 26 WIA with 2 MIA.  To me it seems like high casualties for the Germans.  But, maybe this is ok for East Front??   However, all the other platoons are fresh and unused.

What was puzzling is that the arty was of no use.  Once the FO's moved up with the troops, they had no contact with the on-map mortars, and by the time they could spot the trenches it was too close to call in the offboard stuff.  I kept the Co CO's and Bn CO's with the on-map mortars but that didn't help keep contact with the FO's.  What am I doing wrong???  Or, is your intention dragonwynn that the first assault is purely inf??

 

 

 

[dragonwynn]

Not sure why the FO are not allowing you to call the on map mortars I will look into that. Your strategy sounded good though, once you get to the trenches its not that strong of a defending force. If you can stay out of the mines its a straight forward assault.

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, Erwin said:

<Snip>  Once the FO's moved up with the troops, they had no contact with the on-map mortars, and by the time they could spot the trenches it was too close to call in the off board stuff.  I kept the Co CO's and Bn CO's with the on-map mortars but that didn't help keep contact with the FO's.  What am I doing wrong???  <Snip> 

I learned a similar lesson the hard way in a tournament at The Few Good Men.  I had on map mortars and thought (assumed) they should have C2 at their location.  Made contact with the OpFor and tried to request mortar support.  They could not fire.  It took several turns to get them in the fight.  After this incident I updated my SOP during Setup to check on map mortars for C2 before hitting the big red button. I click on various HQ & FO teams to see if they can call all the support assets. If there is a problem it can be fixed while still in the Setup phase.

What did the support panel read when the FO team was trying to contact the mortars?  Denied, Out of contact, No line of fire etc...   Also what did the C2 panel of the mortars show?  Close visual, voice etc..     

[Erwin]

"Out of Contact"   

I had the Co and Bn HQ's move beside the mortars which I left in their original set-up positions.  The FO's could access the off-map arty but not the on-map.

Will have to check the C2 panel later.

 

Any comments about my German casualties or timeline for clearing the trenches?   I wondered if I should have taken more time and done a lot of prep support fire from the MG's on the trench lines where my guys were heading.  Generally, I hate to shoot at anything until I see a target.  (British economy of ammo.)

Edited July 28, 2017 by Erwin

[Erwin]

Re C2 issues...

The (5th?) Co HQ is with the mortars.  So, a couple of the FO's have no green connection with that Co HQ. 

However, one of the FO's has the Bn HQ as its direct superior and it has a green C2 dot to it.  That Bn HQ is also with the mortars.  So, am really confused as to why I can't access any on-map mortars.

 

*********  POSSIBLE SPOILER  **********

 

My tactic (or is it a "strategy"??) of keeping my flamers and engineers with charges up front was not good.  I was hoping that they would flame the trenches or throw charges when an enemy appeared.  But, it seemed that the Russians always spotted the Germans first at under 10 meter range and most friendly casualties occurred in the first few seconds.  It was only the fact that I had a preponderance of local forces plus a few HMG's able to fire supportively on their own initiative that enabled the Germans to clear the trenches.  I could see that even tho they inflicted lots of losses on the attackers, the Russians were surprisingly eager to run - maybe due to the last upgrade issues.

Am still interested in how others handled this initial attack and if there is a better method of attacking in these very short range LOS situations.  eg:  Should I have SLOW moved the Germans the last 10 or so meters up to the trenches?

Edited July 28, 2017 by Erwin

[MOS:96B2P]

21 hours ago, Erwin said:

"Out of Contact"   

I had the Co and Bn HQ's move beside the mortars which I left in their original set-up positions.  The FO's could access the off-map arty but not the on-map.

Will have to check the C2 panel later.

Out of Contact = Tubes need C2.  One of the advantages of off map arty/mortars is that they are always in contact on their end.  You only have to worry about keeping your authorized call requesting on-map officer/NCO alive. 

18 hours ago, Erwin said:

Re C2 issues...

The (5th?) Co HQ is with the mortars.  So, a couple of the FO's have no green connection with that Co HQ. 

However, one of the FO's has the Bn HQ as its direct superior and it has a green C2 dot to it.  That Bn HQ is also with the mortars.  So, am really confused as to why I can't access any on-map mortars.  

Maybe the mortars are not in the chain of command of the Bn. HQ?  (maybe that entire 5th Company is not part of the Bn.  A five company Bn?)  If they are not in the same chain of command but that Bn HQ is within six action spots of the mortars the Bn HQ could spot for the mortars.  But I don't think subordinates of that Bn. HQ, out in the field, would be able to request non-Battalion mortars through that Bn. HQ.

I have not had a chance to play this one yet.  I'm tempted to download it and give it a spin just to have a look at the C2 setup.  However I'm currently in a deadly MOUT battle in "The Hornets Nest" created by @Sgt.Squarehead.   I will definitely have to put Zitadelle on the list.   

[Erwin]

Not only does Dragonwynn produce very good campaigns, am amazed at his prolific production rate.  He's released 3 or 4 xnt campaigns in the last 6 or so months!

Re chain of command:  The LHS trench mortars have 4 green lights:  Mortar - 4th HQ - 2nd Co - 3 SS Auf.  But, still none of the FO's can access. 

The RHS trench mortars do have the 4 Zug Weapons Platoon and 5th Co HQ's out of C2.   I will try and move the HQ's back.  But currently I have the Weapons Platoon HQ up front with the HMG's (where I thought it was supposed to be) and the 5th Co HQ in the wrong (LHS) mortar trench for some strange reason.  But I need to check who has radios.

Strange, I don't recall having this kind of C2 issue every before in any CM2 game.

I think the default set-up was odd as it seemed that HQ's started with the wrong troops so maybe they got very mixed up.  Or, it could have been me misreading which HQ belonged to which formation.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Erwin

[dragonwynn]

Ok it appears that the FO is attached to the II SS PzGr Rg HQ. I added in 1 FO to each mortar detachment and they can access the mortars to their assigned detachments. The kicker is when they reach the hill they are now out of contact with the assigned mortars. Its the same with the mortar detachments HQ units. However both can access the off boards artillery and mortars at the hill. So in the update I may just take out the on board mortar squads and add them as off board for a little more support. The FO's and HQ should be able to call them in.

Edited July 29, 2017 by dragonwynn

[Erwin]

That's a relief.  I was getting concerned I had done something really dumb, or my CMBS install was corrupted...  

Strange that no other player of this Mission seemed to notice or comment on this!

[Erwin]

dragonwynn: Will play your Heart of Darkness campaign until you decide when to do the Zitadelle update.  Will make comments re "Heart"  in CMSF forums.

[Heinrich505]

Erwin,

  Dragonwynn's Operation Clipper is pretty amazing too. 

Heinrich505

[Erwin]

Yes, am impressed with d's work.  However, am focusing on CMSF and CMA games due to CM burn out.  The great thing about CMSF and CMA is that the weather is always lovely, lots of sun and heat, and it's usually daylight.  So those games actually make me feel better. 

The Eurocentric WW2 and CMBS games feature most scenarios that are gloomy or at night and easily burn me out. 

[Heinrich505]

Erwin,

  Quite understand.  I worked out of Seattle and lived in Tacoma, Washington for 10 years.  I know all about gloomy and cold, icy rain.  Was there for five days before I realized there was a huge volcanic mountain - Mt. Ranier - looming over us, because it was so cloudy and rainy.    That mountain is so beautiful, when you can see it.  Just amazing.

  As for Operation Clipper, lots of rain, clouds, muddy terrain, and Gloom.  But, it is a really cool campaign.  I'm pretty sure you would burn out after the first few battles, but I highly recommend it.

Heinrich505

[Erwin]

Will definitely get to play any campaign I can find. 

As you probably know, I much prefer campaigns to standalones esp when ammo and force conservation in required as that is when the CM system shines. 

Heart of Darkness will keep me busy playing in the hot sun and sand for a bit.  Mission 4 is a monster - one of the biggest CM2 maps I have seen and lots of US and Brit units - and 2.5 hours!   And someone got shot in turn one! 

[dragonwynn]

Getting ready to update the above issue with the mortars in mission 1 so is there any other issues that anyone has come across so I can get resolved and I will post a new .cam file?

Michael

[76mm]

Dragonynn, are the separate scenario files for this campaign available anywhere?  I tried to unpack it with Scan_Cade but only one scenario--Hill 218--resulted.