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A word search of the forums proved fruitless, so I'll ask...

Is it correct that the game calculates vehicle LOS from the "center mass" regardless of where the optics may be located? I seem to remember reading it somewhere on here. 

I am playing the UKR side of Gagarina Ave Checkpoint and have several BTR-4E's in hull down positions. The gun(turret) has unobstructed LOS to several Russian vehicles...but cannot "see" ANY of them. Even ones like MBT's with clearly visible muzzle blasts (not even getting a "?" icon).  These enemy vehicles are NOT in woods or brush. In open fields. No rain, fog, smoke, etc. Daytime...plenty of sunlight.

I remember the "Oplot bug" and know that got fixed awhile ago.

If...I use "manual fire" mode and give the BTR-4E's a command to fire into a spot... then they easily hit/destroy my opponents vehicles. I know IRL the sighting system for this vehicle is up in the turret but I'm guessing that the game is calculating it as down in the body.

Am I correct?

 

 

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1 hour ago, cbennett88 said:

Is it correct that the game calculates vehicle LOS from the "center mass" regardless of where the optics may be located? I seem to remember reading it somewhere on here. 

No. The LOS is calculated form the virtual eye balls of the crew. So where they sit and what they are looking through is where their LOS is calculated from.

 

1 hour ago, cbennett88 said:

I am playing the UKR side of Gagarina Ave Checkpoint and have several BTR-4E's in hull down positions. The gun(turret) has unobstructed LOS to several Russian vehicles...but cannot "see" ANY of them. Even ones like MBT's with clearly visible muzzle blasts (not even getting a "?" icon).  These enemy vehicles are NOT in woods or brush. In open fields. No rain, fog, smoke, etc. Daytime...plenty of sunlight.

I remember the "Oplot bug" and know that got fixed awhile ago.

Sounds interesting. Do you have a save or two you could offer? Can you give an idea of the time involved here? Are we talking about enemy vehicles in place fighting for minutes or just arrived?

1 hour ago, cbennett88 said:

If...I use "manual fire" mode and give the BTR-4E's a command to fire into a spot... then they easily hit/destroy my opponents vehicles. I know IRL the sighting system for this vehicle is up in the turret but I'm guessing that the game is calculating it as down in the body.

More interestinger

1 hour ago, cbennett88 said:

Am I correct?

No and maybe. No that is not how LOS is calculated and maybe you are seeing a problem. Need verifiable data... :)

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Funnily enough I played this from the other side and had a hell of a job of targeting those same BTRs from the row of houses by the main road.  T-90s just couldn't see the BTRs in the edge of the wooded area by the slight embankment despite apparently having clear LOS.  I tried wasting the trees in their vicinity, but it made no difference so I did exactly as OP and area targeted their location to kill them.....It was another LOS related incident on this map that prompted my whole 'T-90s can't hit s**t!' thing a while back.

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2 minutes ago, IanL said:

Do you have a save or two you could offer? Can you give an idea of the time involved here? Are we talking about enemy vehicles in place fighting for minutes or just arrived?

Game is in progress. And now it is all "muddied up" with smoke and dust from firing...so, unfortunately no saved games to give you right now. :( The BTR-4Es are in fabulous hull down positions(as evidenced by his ineffective return fire :D). But...although they have had the location of the Red BMPs & MBTs under observation since the beginning of the game (clear "blue" LOS) they cannot "see" the enemy. Manual targeting by me however has been effective in killing several of his vehicles...by auto cannon. No "joy" using the missiles since they require spotting. The BTR-4e is "prime" for this type of fighting, in that the high turret SHOULD give it excellent performance in hull down. I still "feel" like the game engine is using center mass of the vehicle.

Sorry I don't have the verifiable data you need. I understand.

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OK I'll put it on my long list of load up the scenario and try it. If I get there and see issues I'll report back but it could take a while...

Edited by IanL

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Go for it.

My suggestion is to setup is the BTRs in hull down (see if you can find the spot that @cbennett88 is using) and have the enemy move in and watch the spotting. Perhaps create a save with the defence setup and ready and then again once some enemy are in the kill zone. That's what I would do. Using WEGO hot seat mode with no passwords makes it easy to control what is happening and see things from both sides.

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Well...I've gone and "screwed it up" :angry:

I tried to go into the previous turn and take screenshots to show you. I hit "quit without saving" thinking I would be fine. 

Now CM doesn't recognize the existence of the saved game. I've tried deleting and redownloading (w/CMH) both the incoming and outgoing saved game files several times but CM just does not see them. The one thing I have noticed, is that in my Incoming folder, all the other files have a "~" in front of the name of the file EXCEPT this one. Tried re-naming it with a "~" but it made no difference.

The last turn he sent me is still in Dropbox. 

Any suggestions?

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Yup, there's definitely something odd going on:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9gknmdwfcv9oc6h/Gagarina Ave Checkpoint 001.bts?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ztv4c9cve0flxxe/Gagarina Ave Checkpoint 002.bts?dl=0

Check out the situation with the left hand BTR to the BMP on my distant far left in both saves and the BTR on my right near the road to the T-90 on my right.....All a bit odd, especially the one on the left which can both see and not see the BMP simultaneously!  :wacko:

 

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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14 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

especially the one on the left which can both see and not see the BMP simultaneously!  :wacko:

?? can you clarify what does that mean? I have seen a case where the crew of a AFV could not see a target but the passengers (one in the command chair) could. Is that what you are seeing.

At any rate thanks for setting up a couple of saves. I will try to spend some time this weekend looking at them.

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When I deselect all units in Iron mode, the left hand BMP is visible as a firm contact/target and can be seen on map, the spotting units are indicated as being the BTR and a nearby platoon HQ (possibly a MMG team too, my memory isn't what it was), both appear to have good eyes on target.  But when you select the BTR, the BMP vanishes from the map, even though the BTR has unobstructed LOS to the BMPs location (IIRC it suddenly and unexpectedly spotted and killed the BMP maybe half a dozen turns later, however the BMP may have moved or otherwise attracted its attention).

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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14 hours ago, cbennett88 said:

@Sgt.Squarehead

Yeah...that is weird! I wonder if that is related to why I am having problems opening the last turn sent to me...

The file he sent "seems" fine...but for some reason the game doesn't "see" it

Yuck. Exiting a PBEM turn and then reloading it later is totally OK. I do it all the time. Well it is supposed to be OK. The issue with the game not seeing a turn is usually one of two things. The file is not in the incoming email folder (it got copied to the wrong place some how) or the version of the games do not match. On your game's main screen does the version in the bottom right make sense?

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I should probably add here that the designer of the scenario has done a great job, it's now the only CM:BS scenario that I've played from both sides and liked from both sides.....Bravo!  B)

It's weird but it's fun!  ;)

Shame it crashed.  :mellow:

(Gonna have another go from my last save.....See what happens.)

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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Same issue again this time with the pair of T-64s, they can both see and not see the same BMPs.....Odder & odder! 

Tanks spotted & killed BMPs a couple of turns later, but then I noticed I still have Gran Precision HE for my 120mm mortars but my spotter apparently can't use it anymore?  I haven't used any at all, the option to use precision strikes was there earlier, he hasn't moved or taken casualties, he still has the designator.....What's the issue?

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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1 hour ago, IanL said:

Yuck. Exiting a PBEM turn and then reloading it later is totally OK. I do it all the time. Well it is supposed to be OK. The issue with the game not seeing a turn is usually one of two things. The file is not in the incoming email folder (it got copied to the wrong place some how) or the version of the games do not match. On your game's main screen does the version in the bottom right make sense?

I have occasionally encountered issues with corrupt game files(PBEM)... or mis-routed ones...and have always found a solution to them. Usually deleting the old file and copying it from Dropbox to the "Incoming" works. I use the latest ver of CMBH...and the latest ver of the game. I currently have 9 PBEM games going right now. Everything has been smooth till this one. CMBH sees and transfers the "sent" turn just fine. But...I noticed that in my Incoming folder all the other .ema files (turns) have a "~" in front of the name...EXCEPT this one. The files stored in Dropbox don't... but I think it is CMBH's way of notating whose turn it is once it has been placed in your game folder. I tried re-naming it with the ~ but it made no difference. 

I have asked my opponent to re-play the last turn and send it to me as a last resort.

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I thought LOS is calculated from waypoints so one can easily determine where a unit should be moved - a feature which seems not to work for me.

Edited by morphinus

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I remember playing T34-76 in CMRT, the tank where the commander shifts seats and doubles as the gunner. One vexing problem was the unbuttoned commander would spot a target, would drop down to the gunner's seat and... nothing. So he'd pop back up and spot it again, drop down to the gunner's seat and still can't see nothin' from that position. Another interesting problem was with JpzIV. The roof-mounted gunner's periscope would have LOS to a target but the lower-mounted gun would be pointing into the intervening terrain. This was an actual real-world problem they had with that vehicle.

CMBS does not treat previous-generation Russian vehicles (usually in Ukraine service) very kindly. The optics and situational awareness is modeled as crap. Often with good reason. I became so vexes with T64 that I asked Charles to double-check to see if the vehicle optics were in position and working properly. He assured me they were.

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Thing is though, these BTRs are festooned with cameras on a really tall RWS, the crew is in the hull and includes a vehicle commander.  In my saves the BTRs can see the ground the tank stands on but not the tank stood on it and other oddities as described above.

One thought.....I didn't look in the editor, but could Russian EW be messing with BTRs' sensors? 

I should also note that the T-90s' Shtora jammers were very effective against my BTRs' ATGMs and the off track missiles were very convincingly modelled (Tidy!).  B)

Dammit.....I'm starting to like CM:BS!  :unsure:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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9 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

the BTRs can see the ground the tank stands on but not the tank stood on it and other oddities as described above.

EXACTLY!! This what I experienced and tried to describe. 

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I had a lot of weird occurrences with this one.....Immediately before it crashed, I 'Bailed-Out' an immobilised BTR, to my surprise a HQ unit appeared, then the game crashed.  Bailing out the same vehicle in all subsequent saves produced the vehicle crew as expected. 

Then there's the Gran issue.....Why couldn't my spotter use it?  He had 12 Gran rounds (IIRC) all the tools and a perfect view, but the option for precision strikes had vanished, never to return.

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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I am afraid I have not had a chance to look at the saves yet. Sorry guys I had unexpected taxi duty for my mother :-) and the planned pool repair work is still in progress.

The description does sound suspicious but I do want to make a point that the spotting system is not just modeling if a unit has a clear LOS to an enemy vehicle but it is also modeling whether the crew notices the enemy.

That is hard for people to swallow but it is possible that an enemy vehicle will remain unspotted for a time even when in clear view. What we have to watch for how long it takes for the enemy unit to become spotted. As I said from the description it is worth investigating for sure. 

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Just had exactly the same problems on a different map (Galloping Horse Downfall), three blind tanks (and an APC and an ATGM).....This game is borderline unplayable, an utter waste of time.  :angry:

A trio of Bradleys had received three, three and two direct hits respectively from a 122mm SPG battery (precision ammo), yet they apparently remain unscathed.....Sufficiently so at any rate to casually swat a trio of advancing T-90s who (in theory at least) knew exactly where they were.  All US forces were under full observation and they were utterly clueless as to my position, yet the moment my forces reveal themselves (and discover they are unable to see the vehicles that they know are standing on the ground that they have in plain view) the Bradleys kill the lot.  :unsure:

US forces are MASSIVELY overrated in this game.....It's just ridiculous.  :mellow:

 

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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