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Invulnerable jeep - now with video

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44 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Hmm.  Disturbing when you compare with the discussion how easy it is to kill the gunner of a halftrack behind his gun shield.

Heh. A little disparity there, wouldn't you say?

;)

Michael

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Because I apparently have nothing better to do with my time than investigate every odd occurrence in a Combat Mission game I just lined up 10 jeeps 200m meters in front of 10 MG42s (separate lanes, one MG for each jeep). Within 10 seconds 8 jeeps were destroyed and 7 drivers dead. Only one driver lived longer than 15 seconds. He made it to 25.

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6 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

Because I apparently have nothing better to do with my time than investigate every odd occurrence in a Combat Mission game I just lined up 10 jeeps 200m meters in front of 10 MG42s (separate lanes, one MG for each jeep). Within 10 seconds 8 jeeps were destroyed and 7 drivers dead. Only one driver lived longer than 15 seconds. He made it to 25.

I think the problem might be the distance. At 200m, there will be some bullet spread, whereas at 20m all the bullets will hit nearly exactly at the aim point. If that aim point is invulnerable for some weird reason, the jeep can't be knocked out.

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1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

I think the problem might be the distance. At 200m, there will be some bullet spread, whereas at 20m all the bullets will hit nearly exactly at the aim point. If that aim point is invulnerable for some weird reason, the jeep can't be knocked out.

Interesting thought, but possibly flawed. The Kübelwagen I shot at was at close range—20-50 meters, but also from a variety of angles, so the likelihood of all the bullets striking the same point was nil. Whatever is going on here is probably buried deep in the coding and not easy to get at. The good news is that it doesn't appear to effect play very often.

The lingering problem with HT gunners is more serious.

Michael

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14 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

The Kübelwagen I shot at was at close range—20-50 meters

So we have two cases of "invincible jeeps", both when shot at from very close range. That's when jeeps should be most vulnerable, but seems not to be the case. The gunner is correctly aiming straight for the driver, but the windshield seems to protect him.

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FOW keeps the German player from seeing (accurately) the status of that jeep. It seems to be destroyed pretty quickly and then the driver bails. (The explosion (grenade?) seems to do the job.) The first set of bullets seems to impact the windshield in front of the passenger seat.

But, yeah, kind of interesting. There seems to be a disparity between halftrack gunners and jeep drivers and who can live longer. Maybe halftracks just need the windshield? ;)

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I think the comparison with half track gunners is probably fallacious. The AI aims at half track gunners. I am not 100% certain, but with a soft-skinned vehicle the AI aims at the vehicle, not the occupants.

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11 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I think the problem might be the distance. At 200m, there will be some bullet spread, whereas at 20m all the bullets will hit nearly exactly at the aim point. If that aim point is invulnerable for some weird reason, the jeep can't be knocked out.

Possibly. Or it could be that you have seen an outlier. N=1. In my test, one jeep and driver stayed functional for 25 seconds, which is almost exactly how long yours lasted in that video. The difference is I had 9 other examples to place it in context.

Edited by Vanir Ausf B

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1 hour ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

I think the comparison with half track gunners is probably fallacious. The AI aims at half track gunners. I am not 100% certain, but with a soft-skinned vehicle the AI aims at the vehicle, not the occupants.

Agreed.

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3 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

I think the comparison with half track gunners is probably fallacious. The AI aims at half track gunners. I am not 100% certain, but with a soft-skinned vehicle the AI aims at the vehicle, not the occupants.

It looks to me as if the gunner is aiming straight for the driver in my video. As it would be rational to do.

I find it odd to dismiss this case as an "outlier". The game tracks every bullet, and there's a  lot of them hitting the driver here. I haven't counted them, but the odds of not getting killed within the first five seconds in that situation would be infinitesmal. Not 1/10.

Edited by Bulletpoint

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2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

 the odds of not getting killed within the first five seconds in that situation would be infinitesmal. Not 1/10.

I disagree. In reality the driver would not be sitting there bolt upright the whole time, especially if the vehicle was not moving. But they do in the game because there is no "duck down" animation. That is one reason not every bullet that "hits" someone injures them. There is a level of abstraction layered on top of the physics to account for things not visibly modeled.

 

Edited by Vanir Ausf B

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On 7/14/2017 at 10:05 PM, Vanir Ausf B said:

I disagree. In reality the driver would not be sitting there bolt upright the whole time, especially if the vehicle was not moving. But they do in the game because there is no "duck down" animation. That is one reason not every bullet that "hits" someone injures them. There is a level of abstraction layered on top of the physics to account for things not visibly modeled.

 

Oh, and I would agree with that statement...However, this doesn't seem to apply to Gunners & unbuttoned Crew Members, as it should (better Savings Roll for ducking in and out, etc), and making them a little less vulnerable to Small Arms. 

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I see c3k mentioned the 'death clock' without calling it such.
That's been in the series since the olden days of CMx1. That's when from your view your vehicle is definitely knocked out but from the opponent's side it looks like your vehicle is still alive and taking hits. Its a function of FOW. The function is a bit abstracted in the game. They can't do any tell-tale animations signifying an abandoned or KO'd vehicle until the 'death clock' has counted down.

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On 15.7.2017 at 4:05 AM, Vanir Ausf B said:

I disagree. In reality the driver would not be sitting there bolt upright the whole time, especially if the vehicle was not moving. But they do in the game because there is no "duck down" animation. That is one reason not every bullet that "hits" someone injures them. There is a level of abstraction layered on top of the physics to account for things not visibly modeled.

 

I think that explains the whole matter very well. So although it doesn´t quite look like WYSIWYG, the results would obviously be the same.

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21 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

Oh, and I would agree with that statement...However, this doesn't seem to apply to Gunners & unbuttoned Crew Members, as it should (better Savings Roll for ducking in and out, etc), and making them a little less vulnerable to Small Arms. 

Gunners and unbuttoned crew actually do have duck down animations. The AI's judgement on when it is appropriate to use that ability could perhaps be improved but that is a separate issue. Also, when the AI fires at gunners and unbuttoned tank commanders it is aiming specifically at the soldier, which I believe is not true with soft-skinned vehicles.

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4 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

Also, when the AI fires at gunners and unbuttoned tank commanders it is aiming specifically at the soldier, which I believe is not true with soft-skinned vehicles.

I would be nice if the company would give an authoritative answer to that.

Michael

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BFC has tweaked this stuff before. It can always be tweaked again if needs be. Soft skinned vehicles were toughened-up way back in 2008 (CMSF) and passenger vulnerability in soft-skinned vehicles was increased in the CMBN 2.12 patch.

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8 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

BFC has tweaked this stuff before. It can always be tweaked again if needs be. Soft skinned vehicles were toughened-up way back in 2008 (CMSF) and passenger vulnerability in soft-skinned vehicles was increased in the CMBN 2.12 patch.

Thanks for the Info, Vanir B...Actually, I'm personally fine with how Soft Skinned Vehicles are handled now.

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1 hour ago, user1000 said:

It's not  jeeps at all.. This guy is taking multiple 50 cal shots. i think it's tied to the state of the soldier or skill maybe.

Looks like the target's in a tree tile so the abstracted 'cover value' for the terrain might also be a contributing factor there.

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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On 7/21/2017 at 5:11 AM, MikeyD said:

I see c3k mentioned the 'death clock' without calling it such.
That's been in the series since the olden days of CMx1. That's when from your view your vehicle is definitely knocked out but from the opponent's side it looks like your vehicle is still alive and taking hits. Its a function of FOW. The function is a bit abstracted in the game. They can't do any tell-tale animations signifying an abandoned or KO'd vehicle until the 'death clock' has counted down.

This is not about the jeep surviving, but about the driver surviving.

On 7/22/2017 at 0:54 AM, Vanir Ausf B said:

Also, when the AI fires at gunners and unbuttoned tank commanders it is aiming specifically at the soldier, which I believe is not true with soft-skinned vehicles.

I think it's quite obvious from the video that they aim exactly for the driver, but that all the bullets magically get stopped by the windshield.

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