Moving deployed AT gun into forest - impossible?

[Bulletpoint]

In a current game, I'm trying to roll a deployed AT gun from one light forest square into the neighbouring light forest square.

Instead of moving straight from A to B, the gun crew is going a long way around, keeping to open ground, and seems incapable of entering the forested square. However, they are able to deploy in the forest if they enter it, for example if they get there riding a truck.

Is this working as designed?

[A Canadian Cat]

Not sure can you provide more info? The TacAI will choose some unexpected paths when moving through difficult terrain - like favouring going around when you did not expect them to. The solution is to use short movement commands as this encourages them to stay closer to direct path.

It sounds like the AT gun is in light forest terrain and you are trying to move just one AS next door - also light forest floor terrain. If so then leaving the forest and travelling on the grass and then back into the forest would be not good. On the other hand if you are giving them a move order of two or three AS along they might take to moving out onto the grass and then back in. The AT gun should defiantly be able to enter light forest floor terrain.

Do you have a game save you could share?

[Bulletpoint]

7 minutes ago, IanL said:

It sounds like the AT gun is in light forest terrain and you are trying to move just one AS next door - also light forest floor terrain.

Yes, this is exactly the case.

7 minutes ago, IanL said:

then leaving the forest and travelling on the grass and then back into the forest would be not good.

Definitely agree.

I can now say that they DO actually eventually enter the other light forest tile, but it took around 10 minutes of walking around the forest patch before they entered the destination square from the opposite side. The forest patch was just three squares, arranged like a "boot". The gun began its walk in the square that forms the heel of the boot. They were given orders to move to the shaft of the boot, but they exited in the opposite direction and walked around the "toe" of the boot, eventually entering the shaft from the top.

I hope that explanation made sense. I have a savegame, but it's from a multiplayer match so not sure it will be useful.

[Michael Emrys]

7 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I can now say that they DO actually eventually enter the other light forest tile, but it took around 10 minutes of walking around the forest patch before they entered the destination square from the opposite side. The forest patch was just three squares, arranged like a "boot". The gun began its walk in the square that forms the heel of the boot. They were given orders to move to the shaft of the boot, but they exited in the opposite direction and walked around the "toe" of the boot, eventually entering the shaft from the top.

That is just plain weird, but it is the kind of thing the AI does from time to time. When I first got FI I had a lot of trouble getting men to move through vineyards. It was only after several hair pulling sessions that I was able to find a way to get that to work in some semblance of the desired manner. What Ian says about using very short movement segments is the key to traversing any kind of difficult terrain. Otherwise, expect madness.

Michael

[BletchleyGeek]

9 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I can now say that they DO actually eventually enter the other light forest tile, but it took around 10 minutes of walking around the forest patch before they entered the destination square from the opposite side. The forest patch was just three squares, arranged like a "boot". The gun began its walk in the square that forms the heel of the boot. They were given orders to move to the shaft of the boot, but they exited in the opposite direction and walked around the "toe" of the boot, eventually entering the shaft from the top.

I hope that explanation made sense. I have a savegame, but it's from a multiplayer match so not sure it will be useful.

It made a lot of sense @Bulletpoint. Just out of curiosity, which side of the "boot" were the enemy units? Had the AT crew any hostile contacts?

Edited July 12, 2017 by BletchleyGeek

[Bulletpoint]

6 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

What Ian says about using very short movement segments is the key to traversing any kind of difficult terrain. Otherwise, expect madness.

 

I'm using the shortest movement path possible - just one (1) square.

[Bulletpoint]

4 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

It made a lot of sense @Bulletpoint. Just out of curiosity, which side of the "boot" were the enemy units? Had the AT crew any hostile contacts?

Enemy board edge is behind anyone wearing the boot. Enemy units would currently mostly be above the shaft. The AT gun hasn't seen any enemy units yet, and I doubt that influences pathing logic. In any case, it explosed itself much more to potential enemy fire by going on that detour than simply moving to the destination directly.

[BletchleyGeek]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Enemy board edge is behind anyone wearing the boot. Enemy units would currently mostly be above the shaft. The AT gun hasn't seen any enemy units yet, and I doubt that influences pathing logic. In any case, it explosed itself much more to potential enemy fire by going on that detour than simply moving to the destination directly.

Well, there was a shorter path - as one counts action spots - between the square under the heel of the boot they found themselves  once they left the tree patch, and the destination square. Why did not choose the path going along the "back of the boot" which was 4 action squares "long", and went through the 6 action squares "long" one?

It wasn't so much mere "presence" what I was wondering about, but rather the "weight of fire" or "firepower" the pixeltruppen little minds were estimating they had to walk through.

In any case, moving out of cover like you described, when movement between covered tiles was possible totally seems to me like a boundary condition (a case which is not being handled properly) of the heuristics Charles probably has programmed in there to decide the contribution possible factors - mobility, exposure to enemy fires, expected intensity of enemy fires, etc. - make towards the path planner consider one route to be worse than another.

Edited July 12, 2017 by BletchleyGeek

[Bulletpoint]

1 minute ago, BletchleyGeek said:

It wasn't so much mere "presence" what I was wondering about, but rather the "weight of fire" or "firepower" the pixeltruppen little minds were considering they had to cross over.

I don't think the troops ever consider expected weight of enemy fire. At least not in version 3.12, which I am playing.

In any case, it's a matter of a unit choosing to go 5-6 squares instead of just 1. It doesn't seem right.

It reminds me of the bridge pathfinding issue where a vehicle will choose very long detours to avoid crossing a bridge.

[BletchleyGeek]

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity, btw.

[Bulletpoint]

15 hours ago, IanL said:

Do you have a game save you could share?

I prepared a savegame to show this issue. Will send by email.

[A Canadian Cat]

I tried them this morning. Even re-plotting your orders to stop on the one intermediate AS did not get the crew to do what you wanted - lazy bastards . Normally that is the way to get them to go the route you want - plot a move order ever AS between where they are and where you want the to go. Typically you don't need to hit ever AS but for this small patch of woods and short distance I would have. It didn't help though.

My guess is the desire to push the gun over smoother terrain vs through the brush is stronger than a simple infantry team (who also like to take the easy way) and that is enough to get them to choose to go around. That is just speculation on my part. Bottom line I logged the bug.

Thanks

[Bulletpoint]

6 hours ago, IanL said:

My guess is the desire to push the gun over smoother terrain vs through the brush is stronger than a simple infantry team (who also like to take the easy way) and that is enough to get them to choose to go around. That is just speculation on my part. Bottom line I logged the bug.

Thanks for verifying and logging it. I suspect your might be right that the game (mistakenly) thinks going across open ground is better/faster than going directly. Same thing seems to happen with vehicles and bridges.