S-Granaten

[Fizou]

Im rereading Jason Marks "Death of the Leaping horseman" and reacted to a section in "fight for the factories" on page 298 (Stackpole books edition).

"there was abundant ammunition available, including S-Granaten, that detonated like a ricochet about 2 meters above ground." "Over the telephone connection, I carefully fired on the steep sloping crest, moved it 50 meters and made a barrage of 10 shots from each mortar with S-Granaten. The effect was tremendous."

Is there anyone that could share some knowledge about these S-Granaten? When they where introduced, if they where used in any numbers and how the worked. Are we talking a time or proximity fuze? Should this ammunition be available in CM? 

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

S-Mines:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-mine

They were also used as a area-defence weapon on panzers.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[General Liederkranz]

Are these 81mm mortar shells? They sound like "Bouncing Betties."

http://www.lonesentry.com/ordnance/bouncing-betty.htmlhttp://www.lonesentry.com/ordnance/bouncing-betty.html

[Fizou]

Thanks General Liederkranz, that must be the one. A bit confusing that its called bouncing bettie just like the S-mine. From your link:

"Upon impact, the nondelay fuze ignites the smokeless powder charge, sending a flash through the hole in the separating plug, setting off the delay pellet. The explosion from the first charge shears the pins holding the nose cap to the projectile body, and throws the shell from 5 to 10 feet into the air. In the meantime, the booster detonates the main TNT bursting charge at approximately the moment when the projectile is at the height of its bounce. This gives the effect of an air burst without the use of a precision time fuze. Height of the burst is governed by the angle of the shell axis with the ground at the time of impact."

In CM we get HE and smoke ammo. Im guessing the HE is standard 8 cm Wurfgranate 34. It would be interesting to find out more about the Wurfgranate 38 and 39 (the S-granate), with the ricochet explosion and if it would be warranted to have it simulated in CM.

Any mortar grog that know more? 

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

22 hours ago, General Liederkranz said:

Are these 81mm mortar shells? They sound like "Bouncing Betties."

http://www.lonesentry.com/ordnance/bouncing-betty.htmlhttp://www.lonesentry.com/ordnance/bouncing-betty.html

That's a very interesting find.....Cheers. 

[John Kettler]

Fizou und General Liederkranz,

The mortar bomb is indeed the 8 cm Wurfgranate 39. The link title is confusing, but the "Bouncing Betties the GIs referred to were the dreaded S-Mines, which you had to step on or hit a trip wire to activate. The Wurfgranate 38 and 39 were activated by impact which would normally result in the mortar bomb's detonation, which instead set off a small charge  in a nose cup, a charge which then blew the rest of the projectile skyward for a super low airburst. This 8 cm projectile type should definitely be in the German mortar ammo options. Have not so far found any production numbers.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by John Kettler

[General Liederkranz]

I'd be curious to see usage or production stats. It's interesting that some GIs didn't even know these rounds existed, despite coming under fire from them--for example: 

"I thought I was seeing mortar rounds hit the ground, bounce back up and explode. That didn't make sense. I must have been seeing them before they struck the earth."

https://books.google.com/books?id=sAq5BAAAQBAJ&pg=PT322&lpg=PT322&dq=german+mortar+bouncing+rounds&source=bl&ots=-iGeVQy9gV&sig=yIf2IVo5HuO_-3ve2ZYOng7caro&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJwJbwnPrUAhWENT4KHf66D3MQ6AEIQzAH#v=onepage&q=german mortar bouncing rounds&f=false

[Michael Emrys]

7 hours ago, Fizou said:

"Upon impact, the nondelay fuze ignites the smokeless powder charge, sending a flash through the hole in the separating plug, setting off the delay pellet. The explosion from the first charge shears the pins holding the nose cap to the projectile body, and throws the shell from 5 to 10 feet into the air. In the meantime, the booster detonates the main TNT bursting charge at approximately the moment when the projectile is at the height of its bounce. This gives the effect of an air burst without the use of a precision time fuze. Height of the burst is governed by the angle of the shell axis with the ground at the time of impact."

Infernally clever, those Germans.

Michael

[Sgt.Squarehead]

But not quite clever enough.....Thankfully. 

[StieliAlpha]

13 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

But not quite clever enough.....Thankfully. 

Hm, cleverness is not all that counts.

There were certainly some other contributing factors.

[BletchleyGeek]

On 09/07/2017 at 0:34 AM, Fizou said:

In CM we get HE and smoke ammo. Im guessing the HE is standard 8 cm Wurfgranate 34. It would be interesting to find out more about the Wurfgranate 38 and 39 (the S-granate), with the ricochet explosion and if it would be warranted to have it simulated in CM.

Any mortar grog that know more? 

 

Perhaps the fire mission setting "Personnel" in CMx2 WW2 German mortars tries to approximate the effect of those munitions.

Interesting posts guys, thanks for sharing.

[Fizou]

10 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

Perhaps the fire mission setting "Personnel" in CMx2 WW2 German mortars tries to approximate the effect of those munitions.

Interesting posts guys, thanks for sharing.

I don't think its possible to order "personnel" missions with German 81 mm mortars, not even as pre-planned barrages (or am I remembering incorrectly?). I think the present game mechanic would work to simulate the W38 / W39, "S-Granate". Question is how available these bombs were? Maybe so rare, especially by the end of the war that they shouldn't be present in the 43-44 titles now available. It would be interesting to find out more about production numbers and allocation to combat units. I will try to find out more.

If the ammunition was fairly common and it would be realistic to have them included in game, question is if it would be enough just to give the German mortars the availability to use "personnel" missions. It would be a quick fix, but probably a bit overpowering as the ammo load probably was a mix of W34 and smoke and some W38/39. So maybe it would need to add a new type of ammunition. And the question is how much work, and how hard it would be to "fix" over all titles.    

[Bulletpoint]

Interesting, I never knew these mortar bombs existed. The ingenuity of the human mind when it comes to warfare seems endless.

From an engineering viewpoint, it's also interesting to note that it's a very different solution to the same problem. The Americans went with hi-tech radar fuses, the Germans just made the bombs bounce.

It reminds me of that old myth about the Americans spending millions to develop a pen that would write in space, whereas the Russians used a pencil.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Bulletpoint

[BletchleyGeek]

5 hours ago, Fizou said:

I don't think its possible to order "personnel" missions with German 81 mm mortars, not even as pre-planned barrages (or am I remembering incorrectly?).

You're totally right - I must have dreamt of seeing the "Personnel" option for arty missions on WW2 titles. Or perhaps is it available in CMFB for the US?

[Fizou]

2 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

You're totally right - I must have dreamt of seeing the "Personnel" option for arty missions on WW2 titles. Or perhaps is it available in CMFB for the US?

For bigger guns its available as an option for pre-planned barrages, and in CMFB it is also available for US guns as ordinary missions. But I don't think mortars of 81 mm caliber are included in either case.  

[BletchleyGeek]

17 hours ago, Fizou said:

For bigger guns its available as an option for pre-planned barrages, and in CMFB it is also available for US guns as ordinary missions. But I don't think mortars of 81 mm caliber are included in either case.  

Yes - here I was mixing up CMBS with CMFB with CMRT...