Tactical Lifehack

[Erwin]

It's just wonderful to finally have a thread on tactics to use in this GAME... 

[Haiduk]

7 hours ago, Oleksandr said:

or 4 BMP's if we talk about some ukrainian units reformed accordingly to NATO standarts

Never heard about that. I will say more, many companies now in real have 6 APC/IFV becaue of lack of light armor for all brigades...

Edited September 9, 2017 by Haiduk

[Sgt.Squarehead]

So are the companies down to two platoons or are the third platoon riding in softskins?

[Oleksandr]

1 hour ago, Haiduk said:

Never heard about that. I will say more, many companies now in real have 6 APC/IFV becaue of lack of light armor for all brigades...

Its ok that you didn't herd of it. It doesnt matter actually. This topic about how to use/combinate Ukrainian hardware within this game in the most effective way possible. Its not about discussing how powerful or weak Ukraine is its about what know hows, tactics, hints, secrets and other information like that. 

[Oleksandr]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

So are the companies down to two platoons or are the third platoon riding in softskins?

Man if you want to discuss how things are in real life please use private messagies - Im trying to set up a library of moves, hints, strategies, and micro/macro level tactics for those who are interested in them. Please dont take it as a place for discussion of how things are bad or good. I mean I cant order you guys but Im asking you guys - please share your ideas towards tactics (screenshots would be highly appreciated). 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Fair comment fella, didn't intend to induce thread-drift. 

I'm interested in what you are doing, are you testing these positions against the AI or a real opponent?

[Oleksandr]

On the following image dear comrades you can find several elements what are in my opinion can be used together. I've highlited those elements by putting them into squares. As you can see there is an AT team located on a hill, next to AT team you can see tank and behind them all on the left you can see BMP resting there on. There are 2 main tasks for AT team in the middlde: 1st to highlight some targets. 2 to destroy some targets. It sounds obvius but it is not that simple - the thing is that tank vs tank duels are highly risky basically who does the first shot wins. Yet, if you are using T-64 then you might have some problems while facing T90's. Basically T90 is more advanced compared to T64BV. Yet it is still possible to destroy those if you making a first shot. The key to success here is to put your AT in the first line, your tank in the second and you BMP in the 3rd. Your tank should not be standing there on the open it should be hulled down, and partly covered by the terrain. Your BMP should be hidden completely and it should not engage targets most of the time. So the task of AT is to look for possible target (always use target arch command to avoid random shots), your  tank should be partly covered and constantly controling certain sector of the battlefield. How you make this set up work? Everything is very simple. You locate some targets with your AT, you make few direct shots from it (look for tanks first), in the same time TANK is backing your AT team up (you can even use Target command to shoot on targets what are invisible for your TANK but are visible for your AT). In case if you are facing combined enemy forces you hunting down tanks, then APC's and then when its only infantry left you order your BMP to take its firing position and wipe out your enemy's infantry.  NOTE on BMP - the main purpose of that BMP is not fighting - it can provide your AT fast cover from anti-personell shells. So if you've been spoted simply you can always hide your AT in that BMP and peacefully leave that area. Or wait that arty strike out. The key here is to compensate certain technologicall downfalls of an old T64 by using sufficient optics of an AT. With this setup you can expect to destroy mechnized platoon supported by 1 or two tanks (depends on a situation). Important thing to remember - it is always better to relocate then to loose what you've got. If you done everything right you will be able to destroy: 1-2 tanks, 3 BTR/BMP's + 3 infantry platoons. Last but not least - this setup is effective while you have 1-2.5 km distance between you and your enemy - while enemy will be getting closer - you will be loosing your advantage. It is perfect for covering open spaces like feilds or something. 

[Oleksandr]

29 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Fair comment fella, didn't intend to induce thread-drift. 

I'm interested in what you are doing, are you testing these positions against the AI or a real opponent?

Well the most of them were tested agains AI (Im playing on Elite). Yet, I had a chance to test few of them against real opponent. The most effective against human so far is the one when you place your forces under the hill while waiting untill your opponent is advancing. The street fight without putting infantry into buildings all the time or combined - was effective as well. Others are still pending to test out against humans. Yet its not about building your game around those tricks its about implementing some of them when its possible.  

[Splinty]

Olexandr, have you considered combining these handy tips into a PDF, or something and releasing them as a download? Im willing to bet a lot of folks would love something along that line.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Splinty

[Oleksandr]

2 minutes ago, Splinty said:

Olexandr, have you considered combining these handy tips into a PDF, or something and releasing them as a download? Im willing to bet a lot of folks would love something along that line.

Oh that is so nice of you man! Emm well Im sure when I will have enough of them written down here I might create file like that. If I would do something like that it will cover everything from micro to macro level. Hm I will defenatly consider that. Thank you once again! 

[Splinty]

1 minute ago, Oleksandr said:

Oh that is so nice of you man! Emm well Im sure when I will have enough of them written down here I might create file like that. If I would do something like that it will cover everything from micro to macro level. Hm I will defenatly consider that. Thank you once again! 

Sweet!

[A Canadian Cat]

Yes, aggreed. Very good to read, thanks.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

12 minutes ago, Splinty said:

Olexandr, have you considered combining these handy tips into a PDF, or something and releasing them as a download? Im willing to bet a lot of folks would love something along that line.

That's a good idea.....Maybe post your ideas in the thread where they can generate relevant discussion and feedback, then compile them as a document for wider use.

[Erwin]

"NOTE on BMP - the main purpose of that BMP is not fighting..."  An excellent reminder to use em only as transports primarily that I forget most of the time.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

That does not apply equally across all titles in the CM range. 

[Erwin]

There's always a great temptation to use IFV's as tanks and armored transports like halftracks etc as armored vehicles.   They are usually only good for mopping up ops. 

(On large maps, the ATGM's of BMP's etc are useful.  But, most CM2 maps feature rather short range battles.)

BTW:  How are your CMA and CMSF campaigns coming along?

Edited September 10, 2017 by Erwin

[Rinaldi]

Context matters. Infantry centric defenses are excellent times to use Bronnegruppas to attack them. 

[Oleksandr]

37 minutes ago, Erwin said:

"NOTE on BMP - the main purpose of that BMP is not fighting..."  An excellent reminder to use em only as transports primarily that I forget most of the time.

              There is a little thing about it - BMP's are created to follow along with tanks in a fighting order and support infantry with fire. BTR's are more of a trasport. Yet, in this particular case - while hunting for tanks BMP should remain in cover and act only when enemy TANKS are taken down. The reson for that is that BMP is very nice for wiping out enemy infantry. So at times you need to use BMP's at time you should keep them safe untill the last phase of combat. Another important reason to keep this BMP alive in this particular case its because it can be used as a hideout for AT team. Moreover that BMP is specifically from Weapons Squad which means that it carrying ammunition for an AT team. But your logic is perfectly correct - avoiding direct contact with vehichles what are able to trasport troops - makes those troops as well as vehichles live longer. Last but not least - situation always dictates. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

49 minutes ago, Erwin said:

BTW:  How are your CMA and CMSF campaigns coming along?

Slowly at the moment, I'll make posts in the relevant thread in due course.

BMPs are capable of much more than mopping-up believe me, look up the 'Bronegruppa' Rinaldi refers to in his post.  Tactics that are useful against a peer state opponent (even in a low intensity conflict) may not work as well in an entirely asymmetric environment.  Likewise you can do things in an environment such as CM:A (in the earlier years at any rate) that you just wouldn't dare against an opponent who might have modern(ish) ATGMs.

Hope this doesn't distract too much from your thread @Oleksandr I think it's actually quite relevant given the wide range of 'conflict intensity' that CM:BS offers us.

Edited September 10, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Apocal]

Yo, Oleksandr, I appreciate the way you're laying this out and everything, but you're spending a lot of points on fortifications (assuming QBs) to protect some pretty cheap units. The dismounted portion of the mountain rifle platoon costs about as much as the 10x trenches (200 points) necessary to fortify them and it still doesn't protect against 122/152 artillery. Modest amounts of 152 in particular (roughly 40 shells or in other words a heavy+medium fire mission) will basically eviscerate them in spite of the trench network you laid out. 200 points won't quite get your (Russian) opponent a full 82mm mortar battery, but it will cover the cost of ammo fired as long as it tears up the platoons-in-trenches you have, which is doable. A big part of it is because as you showed, you have those forces way too close together.

Instead of trying to build a single continuous network, you probably should be making little squad sub-forts that are spread wider apart from one another. Because putting the platoon in a clump means a single 60-90m linear or 75m area fire mission will hit everyone and players aren't like AI, so they have no problem with hitting a wooded area at slightest suspicion of it being occupied.

[Haiduk]

 

@Sgt.Squarehead

Because of troops mostly move on top of armor there is no problems with places on available 6 vehicles. But if we say about "real life very bad case", that many of companies havn't full mencount. Abscence of 30-50 % of personnel in companies is normal situation for Ukranian infantry now. From oppose side situation is the same of even much worth. 

______________

Just example of VOP (ukr. Vzvodnyi Opornyi Punkt or eng. platoon strongpoint) on the hill. Main body of position is 350 x 250 m. System of trenches for circle defense and for fast and cover pass to treeplant,when possibly guard position situates. Main and reserve positions for armored vehicles of platoon and some for added forces (as a rule tank and ZU-23-2) - its placed on a distance in 70-75 m each from other.

Edited September 10, 2017 by Haiduk

[Machor]

On 09/09/2017 at 5:30 PM, Oleksandr said:

The key here is to compensate certain technologicall downfalls of an old T64 by using sufficient optics of an AT.

Are you using the Stugna? If so, does it have thermals in game?

On 09/09/2017 at 5:30 PM, Oleksandr said:

you can even use Target command to shoot on targets what are invisible for your TANK but are visible for your AT

Wouldn't this be 'bot spotting?' Also, wouldn't the tank simply shoot HE if you gave it an area target?

[Rinaldi]

Nice picture Haiduk, one that I will be saving for reference. Makes me proud of the trenches I put into Power Hour. Shame trenches are a toss up with defilade-defeating ammunition. 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2017 by Rinaldi

[Oleksandr]

On 9/10/2017 at 6:28 PM, Machor said:

Are you using the Stugna? If so, does it have thermals in game?

Wouldn't this be 'bot spotting?' Also, wouldn't the tank simply shoot HE if you gave it an area target?

In that particular case russians had no chances - stugna was spotting and knocking out TANKS (T-72B3 in this case but also works perfectly agains T90), T-64 destroyed 4 BTR's, BMP-2 finished all infantry. It took less than 2 minutes. Enemy was "veteran."  My set up was veteran as well - only BMP-was regular. Stugna is good for spotting - it is way better than sights of tanks. This particular set up is not a rule I'm not teaching you guys how to play. Im simply sharing my experience with you guys. Feel free to share yours. There are no such thing as "perfect" set up - sometimes things are working fine sometimes they dont. 

[Oleksandr]

On 9/10/2017 at 10:59 AM, Haiduk said:

 

@Sgt.Squarehead

Because of troops mostly move on top of armor there is no problems with places on available 6 vehicles. But if we say about "real life very bad case", that many of companies havn't full mencount. Abscence of 30-50 % of personnel in companies is normal situation for Ukranian infantry now. From oppose side situation is the same of even much worth. 

______________

Just example of VOP (ukr. Vzvodnyi Opornyi Punkt or eng. platoon strongpoint) on the hill. Main body of position is 350 x 250 m. System of trenches for circle defense and for fast and cover pass to treeplant,when possibly guard position situates. Main and reserve positions for armored vehicles of platoon and some for added forces (as a rule tank and ZU-23-2) - its placed on a distance in 70-75 m each from other.

That information doesnt refers to actual game process. Moreover, your statement about "Abscence of 30-50% of personell" is taken out of the blue. Basically its your personal view what im sure backed by certain sources, but since your work is not recrouting you are not able to know how many people were or werent placed. Again this is the place where we talk about the game and share opinion about the game. If you like to tell us all how terrible things are within Ukrainian Armed forces - create an aditional threat and express your thoughts there. Yet, with all do respect I have to remind you that reveal of calssified materials related to armed forces is a crime. So even if you would be recrouting and even if you had access to valid information you would still not be able to share it for next 25-50 years or so. 

Sharing opinion is one thing - revealing actual numbers especially those  related to national security is a  different story. So if you going to create a threat about how bad things are in Ukrainian Army please make sure that you post information from open sources only.  

My opinion - Ukrainian Army in recent years obtained enormous firepower. Its armed forces are one of the strongest military powers on continent. In terms of fighting army against army its experience is way bigger than any other country in Europe and to be honest in the world in general. Fighting terrorists is nothing compared to fighting russian hybrid forces.  Again - this is not a post about real life - it is about the game. If you have certain tactics or tricks you use within this game - please share - screenshots would be highly appreciated. If you like to mention under each of my post that Ukrainian Armed forces are **** - ok I got your point - you think that they are ****. You made your point, I've herd you - now back to how powerful and mighty they actually are and how awesome they can be within this game.