17 pounder shell stuck in Tiger armor

[StieliAlpha]

Another two pic's found on Pinterest, which I found worth to share.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

That's not bad going for a regular AP round! 

[danfrodo]

Interesting but I am a bit suspicious as to whether it's real.   The intense heat and high forces, I would think, would not leave the shell looking so unblemished.  But perhaps it's real.  I actually hope it's real because it's so very, very cool.

[StieliAlpha]

51 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

That's not bad going for a regular AP round! 

Yeah, would have tickeled the driver.

No really, I found most interesting in those pic's that neither shell, nor armour plate shattered. All deformation is purely plastic.

Edited June 21, 2017 by StieliAlpha

[StieliAlpha]

3 minutes ago, danfrodo said:

Interesting but I am a bit suspicious as to whether it's real.   The intense heat and high forces, I would think, would not leave the shell looking so unblemished.  But perhaps it's real.  I actually hope it's real because it's so very, very cool.

Yep, that's a problem with Pinterest and the like. The source is completely unclear and mostly, there is no description.

E.g., I have seen a pic of a Russian tank, where apparently 5 KV1 turrets were stacked above each other on one normal KV1 chassis. My simple engineers mind tells me: That Center of Gravity would never work. Hm, that leads me to an idea...

[StieliAlpha]

39 minutes ago, danfrodo said:

Interesting but I am a bit suspicious as to whether it's real.   The intense heat and high forces, I would think, would not leave the shell looking so unblemished.  But perhaps it's real.  I actually hope it's real because it's so very, very cool.

See my earlier post above, but here is another, very similar picture. Not quite so impressive, I agree.

http://warisstupid.tumblr.com/post/114666771194/m4-shermayne-german-artillery-shell-embedded-in

Edited June 21, 2017 by StieliAlpha

[Michael Emrys]

7 hours ago, StieliAlpha said:

No really, I found most interesting in those pic's that neither shell, nor armour plate shattered. All deformation is purely plastic.

It reminds me of pics taken during trials testing. Another thing I find troubling is that, while I am by no means and expert on 17pdr ammo, the shot looks a little too short and fat to be a standard 17pdr. I definitely have some doubts about this pic.

Michael

[Sgt.Squarehead]

You are pretty close there Michael.....The full truth of the matter is here:  https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/2ljbdg/chunk_of_armor_torch_cut_out_of_a_tiger_1s/clvcucq/

 

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[John Kettler]

Guys,

Haven't been able to find the photo, but after the war the Navy test fired the Japanese 18.1" vs 16" main belt armor for an Iowa BB. The pic, of the armor section, showed the nose of the shell, naturally sans wind cap, protruding through the far side. Don't know anything about the firing conditions, put the rather attention getting armor section with huge scary projectile used to be in the Washington Navy Yard. What the picture we're seeing shows is one of the potential cases when projectile meets armor. The first is armor defeats projectile, seen famously, for example, in 2-pdr shot breaking up on face hardened German armor. The second is partial penetration of the armor and far side spall but no perforation. The third is what we see above. The fourth is outright defeat of the armor, with full penetration past the far side. The US Army and the US Navy had their own penetration criteria, as did the Germans, the Russians and the Japanese. This useful article (in support of WoT which I abhor) should help clarify matters. The diagram in it nicely depicts the distinctions on the US side.

http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/06/08/so-what-is-a-penetration/

Here is a case in which the armor repeatedly defeated the projectiles. Note happy tanker!



Image Credit: http://img-fotki.yandex.ru

Here is a better version of estimated L/24 75 mm vs KV-1. from what I can tell, nothing got through the other side. The link goes to imgur, and if clicked, it gets huge, big enough to read the stamped markings on the shell base with good eyes, Someone with good eyes can also, armed with German AP shell drawings, probably tell us how deep that projectile went. Concur with caption noting possibility shell didn't detonate because the base fuze was knocked out by the impact. Clearly, it isn't there. The British had a serious problem with this, I believe, during WW I and didn't trust US APC (APCBC) shells in WW II for the same reason, which is why they melted out the filler and replaced it with concrete, gaining a tiny penetration improvement, I've read, in the process. Speaking of partial penetrations without perforations, when I was in one RoW playing "Road to Metemma" I got upwards of 100 partial penetration hits with a Boy ATR vs the relatively mighty M13/40 at range. Figured it came out of the battle looking like a porcupine on the front.Further, there is a pic from the Bellona Tiger 1 booklet showing a flatbed railroad car bearing M-Killed Tiger from the side which had dozens of non penetrating hits. If memory serves, it looked like it had major steel razor stubble  (ATR?) and loads of dings (probable 45 mm). Left me in awe at its toughness. Unfortunately, I haven't yet found the most revealing photo online.

This is part of a Maginot Line fortification which caused the Germans so much trouble crossing the Meuse River they brought up an 88 specifically to defeat it. What's great is that it shows a range of outcomes when hit. While there are no projectiles stuck in the armor, you can readily see numerous defeats of small caliber AP, gouges by what the article at link says was an 88, two clean 88 through and throughs, as well as one which, per the article, didn't get through. All 88 hits were from a single gun firing at 850 meters.

 

Image Credit: John's Military History via http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/407211-tank-ammunitions-of-ww2-overview/

Here is a case where things went disastrously wrong for a StuG. For those with long memories, the damage was duplicated in part on the skirts of Monogram's 1:32 Panzer IV H. Looks like two clean AP penetrations and a possible large caliber HE hit which went off after partially passing through the skirts. Note extensive radial frag dents and penetrations. 

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited June 22, 2017 by John Kettler

[Sailor Malan2]

As to the shell looking clean in the armour, I think it is probably real. There is another Maginot line bunker (well, the southern extension of the line in Alsace) where a cupola very similar to the one JK shows was attacked by an 88mm. There is a partial penetration there, and  I recall the nose of the shell being just as undamaged. The Bunker is not far from Colmar if I recall.

[StieliAlpha]

On 22.8.2017 at 6:52 PM, Sailor Malan2 said:

As to the shell looking clean in the armour, I think it is probably real. There is another Maginot line bunker (well, the southern extension of the line in Alsace) where a cupola very similar to the one JK shows was attacked by an 88mm. There is a partial penetration there, and  I recall the nose of the shell being just as undamaged. The Bunker is not far from Colmar if I recall.

Ah, interesting. Would you remember where? I am living not too far from Colmar.

[John Kettler]

I remember many years ago, before ebay became so pussified and PC, someone had, so help me, a King Tiger glacis plate for sale, as well as some sprockets and a couple of roadwheels. The price wasn't all that bad, but the shipping from Poland would've been lethally expensive. A super cool thing for a grog to have, but best not to move very often. In another instance, this one recent, a Etsy dealer had a very rare SS item in the form of a SS Division Handschar fez helmet. Yes, you read that correctly. Those guys didn't just wear the felt variety when out and about. They had metal fezzes for combat. Get this. Yugoslavia is so anal about Nazi stuff he had to tear the emblems off these rare artifacts simply to be able to sell them. This sort of thing gripes me no end. As far as I'm concerned, history is history, and, in this instance, the significance is even greater, for the Germans were cozied up with an outfit which plagues us to this day as a terrorist group: the Muslim Brotherhood, the same people who slaughtered Anwar Sadat in a hail of AK-47 fire. Artifact destruction sucks. People need to face historical realities, however hideous. 

Regards,

John Kettler

[StieliAlpha]

On 22.8.2017 at 6:52 PM, Sailor Malan2 said:

As to the shell looking clean in the armour, I think it is probably real. There is another Maginot line bunker (well, the southern extension of the line in Alsace) where a cupola very similar to the one JK shows was attacked by an 88mm. There is a partial penetration there, and  I recall the nose of the shell being just as undamaged. The Bunker is not far from Colmar if I recall.

Found it. You refer to the "Kasematte Marckolsheim". A friend of mine lives nearby, on the German side.

 

[Sailor Malan2]

I couldn't remember. The shell is in a vision cupola rather than a weapons point.  When I went, you could look in from  the access, and see iron rungs in the concrete wall. The access went up through the concrete roof into a round/hemispherical steel cupola. The shell poked through rather like the plate in the picture above.

[StieliAlpha]

1 hour ago, Sailor Malan2 said:

I couldn't remember. The shell is in a vision cupola rather than a weapons point.  When I went, you could look in from  the access, and see iron rungs in the concrete wall. The access went up through the concrete roof into a round/hemispherical steel cupola. The shell poked through rather like the plate in the picture above.

I have not been there myself yet, but my friend told me, that the Germans targeted the slew ring of the cupola with three 88mm guns, in order to block it's movement. Then they took it out with flamethrowers.