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Lend-Lease stuff coming soon?

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50 minutes ago, vonmanstein1944 said:

I understand the business model but not being on steam and charging per Operation 60 bucks and for upgrades is a bit strange, even in hardcore wargaming community- read- Gary Grigsby's, Graviteam tactics etc.  I hope it gets a Vistula winter Operation DLC. 

Welcome to the forum, cool to see a lurker joining. 

I do realize that some CM1x players have been left behind. And that saddens me. Two of my friends didn't really make the move. Both tried, one is trying again. Fingers crossed.

I don't think that an increased costs really the problem though. Even at $60 per game the replayability is so high that it is per hour pretty cheap. Niether of my friends stopped playing due to $ they stopped because it is harder and more work. The end of Borg spotting causes all kinds of issues. Some because the increased realism makes tactics harder to properly execute and some because you have to accept that insta spotting (TM) is not a real thing and that units really do have trouble spotting the enemy at times.

That is why moving to a popular distribution system and reducing the price is not something Steve is working on.

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30 minutes ago, IanL said:

 

That is why moving to a popular distribution system and reducing the price is not something Steve is working on.

Noooo...Do not reduce the price !

BFC needs every bit of money they can get...We do not need cheaper Products.

We need MORE products to spend our money on ! :P

 

And charging money for game engine upgrades is not 'strange'...It is a very good idea...

This way we can keep our 'old' CM-games (wich we bough several years ago) up to the latest standard as the game-engine evolves...paying only a slight fee

We do not need to buy a new (full-price) CMRT every other year to keep it fresh. There is no full price CMRT 2014, CMRT 2016, CMRT 2018 we need to buy

A simple game Engine upgrade will do the trick... Way to go ! B)

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1 hour ago, IanL said:

I don't think that an increased costs really the problem though. Even at $60 per game the replayability is so high that it is per hour pretty cheap. Niether of my friends stopped playing due to $ they stopped because it is harder and more work. The end of Borg spotting causes all kinds of issues. Some because the increased realism makes tactics harder to properly execute and some because you have to accept that insta spotting (TM) is not a real thing and that units really do have trouble spotting the enemy at times.

That is why moving to a popular distribution system and reducing the price is not something Steve is working on.

That last sentence is quite a non-sequitur @IanL - I am not sure I follow what you're trying to say. The reason for that, as @Battlefront.com has stated himself, is that the numbers don't add up for them. 

That's not to say that the UI/UX aspect of the games has only had improvements in homeopathic quantities since 2011. Other aspects of the game are also sorely underdeveloped, like fortifications - which felt a bit like a hack back in 2011 and still do - or Command & Control - we have an Iron mode whose only reason of existence is that we get to see what our units actually see individually...

All these things have been discussed over and over and over and over for the best part of half a decade... and some even for a decade, since CMSF release.

To be honest, I must say that I remain unconvinced that addressing any of the above would somehow magically increase the appeal of the games and make them, say, reach the same audience that some recently - or not so recently - released "thinking man RTSes" do reach.

On the other hand, you're right the price isn't the issue. There's a sim out there where simulations of single planes and helicopters are sold at 60$ a pop... which are to be flown on anachronistic maps (until recently). Civ VI - a game with a similar replay value as CMx2 - price point is 70$ and they sell millions of copies. Games with little replay value - take some of the last gen FPSes like The Surge or Prey sell between 50$ and 70$.... while your average indie game needs to be priced somewhere between 19.99$ or 39.99$,  otherwise you have a bunch of dudes coming out of the digital woodwork moaning that they can't afford all the games they desire because of reasons (probably because they're buying the AAA stuff at 70$).

Video game pricing points need to cover the developers' expenses and provide a salary... if those pricing points don't meet those requirements... well, then there's no games :)

Yet nothing of the above has anything to do with the question that @Apocal made. 
 

@IanL says that there's a plan - you sound a bit like the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica and their so-called "plan" -  but the thing is that what has been presented publicly are actually a list of goals or milestones and some flexible timetables... Plans not just require to state the milestones, but also to break down those milestones into tasks, which then need to ordered in a logical way.

I would suggest @Apocal or anyone with similar questions to write to Steve an e-mail... he may even answer! 

Edited by BletchleyGeek

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Huh? Nobody's charging sixty bucks for an upgrade. Why would you post something as absurd as that? You think people who post here don't know how CM is priced?

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15 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

Huh? Nobody's charging sixty bucks for an upgrade. Why would you post something as absurd as that? You think people who post here don't know how CM is priced?

Who's that directed at?

And nobody is saying so @MikeyD. We were referring to games, not upgrades, scenario packs or expansions. I do think that people posting here know how CM is priced. I used to think that people that post here read other people posts carefully.

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6 hours ago, IanL said:

I do realize that some CM1x players have been left behind. And that saddens me. Two of my friends didn't really make the move. Both tried, one is trying again. Fingers crossed.

I'm sure they are not on mac. ;)

Edited by Ales Dvorak

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10 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

That last sentence is quite a non-sequitur @IanL - I am not sure I follow what you're trying to say. The reason for that, as @Battlefront.com has stated himself, is that the numbers don't add up for them. 

Errr right - I made a few leaps there didn't I. Sorry

What I meant was in response to:

11 hours ago, IanL said:
  12 hours ago, vonmanstein1944 said:

I understand the business model but not being on steam and charging per Operation 60 bucks and for upgrades is a bit strange, even in hardcore wargaming community- read- Gary Grigsby's, Graviteam tactics etc.  I hope it gets a Vistula winter Operation DLC. 

Given that clearly BFC is a successful company selling their games at their current price using their own publishing mechanism satisfying some peoples desire to use some other publishing mechanism and reduce the price of their games does not make sense.

11 hours ago, IanL said:

That is why moving to a popular distribution system and reducing the price is not something Steve is working on.

 

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12 hours ago, vonmanstein1944 said:

charging per Operation 60 bucks and for upgrades is a bit strange

 

10 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Huh? Nobody's charging sixty bucks for an upgrade. Why would you post something as absurd as that? You think people who post here don't know how CM is priced?

Correct nobody's charging $60 for an upgrade but some people clearly think that. Or they incorrectly structured their sentence - which is probably the most likely scenario.

Which is worse not property connecting the dots for one's argument or using incorrect sentence structure when speaking of prices? I'll let the grammar police and the logic police argue it out. :D

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10 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

All these things have been discussed over and over and over and over for the best part of half a decade... and some even for a decade, since CMSF release.

Indeed some topics come up a lot. On the one hand I'm not sure why but then I realize that some people don't have the same priorities as BFC. That is natural I guess.

 

10 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

To be honest, I must say that I remain unconvinced that addressing any of the above would somehow magically increase the appeal of the games and make them, say, reach the same audience that some recently - or not so recently - released "thinking man RTSes" do reach.

I agree - none of those criticisms are even one reason the game does not appeal to millions of gamers.

 

10 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

On the other hand, you're right the price isn't the issue. There's a sim out there where simulations of single planes and helicopters are sold at 60$ a pop... which are to be flown on anachronistic maps (until recently). Civ VI - a game with a similar replay value as CMx2 - price point is 70$ and they sell millions of copies. Games with little replay value - take some of the last gen FPSes like The Surge or Prey sell between 50$ and 70$.... while your average indie game needs to be priced somewhere between 19.99$ or 39.99$,  otherwise you have a bunch of dudes coming out of the digital woodwork moaning that they can't afford all the games they desire because of reasons (probably because they're buying the AAA stuff at 70$).

Video game pricing points need to cover the developers' expenses and provide a salary... if those pricing points don't meet those requirements... well, then there's no games :)

With ya 100% there

 

10 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

Yet nothing of the above has anything to do with the question that @Apocal made. 

Yeah, sorry. Those kinds of questions are only answerable by Steve. As a part time tester I am specifically forbidden from talking about what is going on. As I should be. We are allowed to repeat stuff that has already been announced. I did some searching and could not find any comment from Steve about lend-lease. I was sure he made one but I cannot find it.

I did find this:

So some inside people are gathering evidence...

 

10 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

 

@IanL says that there's a plan - you sound a bit like the Cylons from Battlestar Galactica and their so-called "plan" -  

OK that is funny. It turns out they did have a plan - well actually the Cylons didn't really they just knew a supernatural entity did. Ergo I'm like a Cylon - cool. :D Can I be number one - he was just so devious it would be fun to play evil for while. Just don't tell Steve that it makes him a supernatural being, it might go to his head :D

 

10 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

but the thing is that what has been presented publicly are actually a list of goals or milestones and some flexible timetables... Plans not just require to state the milestones, but also to break down those milestones into tasks, which then need to ordered in a logical way.

Right. I have been doing software development a long time, granted not games, I am more and more convinced that this is exactly how it should be done. To the outside world present a roadmap showing what is coming in what order but no dates. You can talk about how specific requests might fit into the road map. Clearly inside you need to break down the features and work into tasks and put them in order too. As well you need to set some expectations on yourself or on your team of artists and developers. But those expectations should be very short term focused so that the estimates and expectations are actually based on actual knowledge not just guess work. You never give a hard date for a final product. That way you never have to weigh meeting an arbitrary deadline against quality. I can tell you that once customers with millions start asking for X and Y by such and such a date peoples decisions start getting really poor really fast.

Anyway back to BFC. I can tell you that as a tester I can see a little more than you but generally that is restricted to just what is being worked on next. Since I have early access I can tell what state it is in. But that's all. The only advantage we normally have is that we know they are actually working on the latest item on the road map. So, we really don't know much more than you guys. Other than we are sure they are executing on the plan. There I go sounding like a cylon again - can I try being number two - he is pretty bad as well.

Could the roadmap be updated more frequently - probably. Even a "yeah still working on this list" might be nice. I'm not sure how valuable that really is but if it reassures people then cool.

Could BFC share more of their internal processes - sure if they wanted. I am sure there would be an appetite for that. Is it really worth them stopping actual development work - I'm not so sure about that.

 

10 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

I would suggest @Apocal or anyone with similar questions to write to Steve an e-mail... he may even answer! 

He may actually. He does not read everything on here but sometimes he sees and answers questions on here though. Sending him a message directly is totally valid.

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I was certainly surprised by the CMBS battle pack. I would just like to know if I should be thinking about VDV/MP/Marines for CMBS, Rome to Victory for CMFI, the Battle of the Scheldt for CMFB, or Warsaw to Berlin (?) in CMRT.

There was no Christmas bone this year if I recall, and if you look back at the forums the Bones and Beta AARs really helped the community get excited for new modules.

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Happy to read you got the pun re: plans etc. @IanL :)

That quality and deadlines can be difficult to reconcile is something nobody will "call bs" on. Perhaps, I have seen crazier things written on these forums.

We saw some of BFC internal processes recently with the following command. As @Battlefront.com very clearly explained to us, the quality of the feature wasn't deemed good enough, and polishing it would push timelines for release towards... and indeterminate future? So it got cut out, and kudos for that. That was a brave thing to do.

I used to fret when there was a paucity of news over here... but not anymore. I guess I am too busy or distracted or tired or I am just looking for "lighter" entertainment. There have been a couple weeks that the only stahlhelms I have seen are those child size ones that the baddies of Wolfenstein: The New Order drop from time to time.

My post was actually motivated because you usually make a lot of sense @IanL - that reply of yours was a bit of an anomaly. I find hard to find anything worth discussing on these forums, to be honest :(

Other than Bil's new iteration of his ruleset for a more satisfying Command and Control, of course.

Edited by BletchleyGeek

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11 minutes ago, BletchleyGeek said:

We saw some of BFC internal processes recently with the following command. As @Battlefront.com very clearly explained to us, the quality of the feature wasn't deemed good enough, and polishing it would push timelines for release towards... and indeterminate future? So it got cut out, and kudos for that. That was a brave thing to do.

Agreed, delivering a level of criticism that can lead to the dropping of a feature is be hard to give too. Even near perfect phrasing can cause a poor reaction. Either way major win for quality construction of software.

 

11 minutes ago, BletchleyGeek said:

I used to fret when there was a paucity of news over here... but not anymore. I guess I am too busy or distracted or tired or I am just looking for "lighter" entertainment. 

Understood. The good news is there is a lot of CM content to work through and keep ourselves busy.

11 minutes ago, BletchleyGeek said:

My post was actually motivated because you usually make a lot of sense @IanL - that reply of yours was a bit of an anomaly. 

LOL, yeah I was trying to point out that the other post didn't make sense. Total fail on my part.

11 minutes ago, BletchleyGeek said:

Other than Bil's new iteration of his ruleset for a more satisfying Command and Control, of course.

Which I agree is pretty neat. I have not tried it myself yet. There needs to be more hours in a day...

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3 hours ago, IanL said:

 

Could BFC share more of their internal processes - sure if they wanted. I am sure there would be an appetite for that. Is it really worth them stopping actual development work - I'm not so sure about that.

 

We are not asking for a 10 page long debate about the future and current situation that would require participation by BFC for several weeks ahead.

A simple notification from battlefront to share some updated information would go a long way...:)

A notification that could start- or end something like this....

" Hello, dear friends. We understand that you all are eager for some new information about where we currently stand when it comes to new releases and the overall situation at BFC right now.

AS WE ARE ALL WORKING VERY HARD ON BRINGING YOU GUYS SOMETHING NEW TO PLAY WITH THIS UPDATE WILL BE QUITE BRIEF AND WE WILL NOT COMMENT ON THIS INFORMATION ANY FURTHER RIGHT NOW. THIS IS JUST A BRIEF NOTIFICATION TO SHOW YOU GUYS WHERE WE STAND RIGHT NOW. IT IS NOT MENT TO BE A DEBATE ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCTS. Thanks for your patience and we hope you guys understand that we are prioritizing game development right now over having a lenthy discussion on these forums...

Thanks for your support !

UPDATE IS AS FOLLOWS:

- bla, bla, bla

- bla, bla, bla

- bla, bla, bla    "

 

I'm sure most people would be very happy with somnething like that. It would not require a massive amount of time on BFC part...Would it ?

 

 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, RepsolCBR said:

We are not asking for a 10 page long debate about the future and current situation that would require participation by BFC for several weeks ahead.

A simple notification from battlefront to share some updated information would go a long way...:)

A notification that could start- or end something like this....

" Hello, dear friends. We understand that you all are eager for some new information about where we currently stand when it comes to new releases and the overall situation at BFC right now.

AS WE ARE ALL WORKING VERY HARD ON BRINGING YOU GUYS SOMETHING NEW TO PLAY WITH THIS UPDATE WILL BE QUITE BRIEF AND WE WILL NOT COMMENT ON THIS INFORMATION ANY FURTHER RIGHT NOW. THIS IS JUST A BRIEF NOTIFICATION TO SHOW YOU GUYS WHERE WE STAND RIGHT NOW. IT IS NOT MENT TO BE A DEBATE ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCTS. Thanks for your patience and we hope you guys understand that we are prioritizing game development right now over having a lenthy discussion on these forums...

Thanks for your support !

UPDATE IS AS FOLLOWS:

- bla, bla, bla

- bla, bla, bla

- bla, bla, bla    "

 

I'm sure most people would be very happy with somnething like that. It would not require a massive amount of time on BFC part...Would it ?

 

 

 

 

 

+1. It would take considerably less time than participating in political discussions, which are pointless to begin with. It would also show that BF values their forums and it would certainly help to keep them alive and the forum members interested in what happens.

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10 minutes ago, RepsolCBR said:

I'm sure most people would be very happy with somnething like that. It would not require a massive amount of time on BFC part...Would it ?

I'm sure I don't know the answer to that question, but I will share a little of my own thought processes as they effect my activities. For instance, I expect we all have various chores around the house that need doing on a more or less constant basis. I know I do, and generally I get right to them and get them out of the way. But once in a while there is something that needs doing and really wouldn't take up an awful lot of time, but just then seems to take up a lot of mental space and I simply am not willing to take on. I have no idea how much effort it takes the good folks at BFC to sit down and write say a bi-monthly update on how things are coming along. But it might be one of those things that they find easy to push onto the back burner and leave there until they finish doing something that they find more personally rewarding.

Michael

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6 hours ago, IanL said:

 

Correct nobody's charging $60 for an upgrade but some people clearly think that. Or they incorrectly structured their sentence - which is probably the most likely scenario.

Which is worse not property connecting the dots for one's argument or using incorrect sentence structure when speaking of prices? I'll let the grammar police and the logic police argue it out. :D

Any English grammarian in the room?

"charging per Operation 60 bucks and for upgrades is a bit strange"  I'd venture to say this sentence is not grammatically wrong nor ambiguous. 

"Charging"  is acting on both the following propositions that are separated by a conjunction. The per 60 bucks is qualifying only the operations. 

Edited by vonmanstein1944

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@RepsolCBR, everyone thinks thier proposal is simple and hardly any work :) Better to let them figure out how much work it really is and what other side effects it might have.

@Aragorn2002 LOL Steve actually likes that kind of discussion. I think that your suggestion will be recieved about as well as your wife telling you to stop watching <insert favorite sport here> and do more house work. Except he probably cares less about our opinion than his wife's :D

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12 minutes ago, IanL said:

@RepsolCBR, everyone thinks thier proposal is simple and hardly any work :) Better to let them figure out how much work it really is and what other side effects it might have.

Ok...

Just trying to give them a little nudge,,,;)

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37 minutes ago, RepsolCBR said:

Just trying to give them a little nudge,,,;)

Understandable, but claiming something that they are apt to recognize as blatantly false is not going to help your case.

Michael

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1 hour ago, IanL said:

@RepsolCBR, everyone thinks thier proposal is simple and hardly any work :) Better to let them figure out how much work it really is and what other side effects it might have.

@Aragorn2002 LOL Steve actually likes that kind of discussion. I think that your suggestion will be recieved about as well as your wife telling you to stop watching <insert favorite sport here> and do more house work. Except he probably cares less about our opinion than his wife's :D

All I'm saying is that we haven't had some decent info on the future of CM in a long time. I can very well live with the fact that my opinion is of no interest to anyone, but I would like to hear something from time to time, to look forward to. The suggestion was made that BF has no time for keeping us informed and I say: nonsense. We're customers. Make some bloody time.

Edited by Aragorn2002

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I'm not asking for weekly (or monthly) Dev Diaries, but I would like to know what's going on.

Even if it's not showing off new maps, equipment, vehicles etc. I would be happy to read about planned campaigns or maybe see a campaign flow chart with the briefing maps.

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34 minutes ago, DougPhresh said:

I'm not asking for weekly (or monthly) Dev Diaries, but I would like to know what's going on.

Even if it's not showing off new maps, equipment, vehicles etc. I would be happy to read about planned campaigns or maybe see a campaign flow chart with the briefing maps.

+1, A simple Xmas bone once by year isn't enough info for this community.

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I'm just a bit disappointed that one of the reasons for moving to the CMx2 engine was to allow much quicker content development, but whether or not that is true, because content is split between so many other games, it can be a loooong between between new content for individual games/fronts (eg, CMRT).

 

Edited by 76mm

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6 hours ago, 76mm said:

I'm just a bit disappointed that one of the reasons for moving to the CMx2 engine was to allow much quicker content development, but whether or not that is true, because content is split between so many other games, it can be a loooong between between new content for individual games/fronts (eg, CMRT).

 

Dragon Age: Origins took 5 years, Morrowind took 6, Half-Life 2 took 5. Of course besides being some of the most successful and acclaimed games ever they also had large budgets and staff, which I know isn't the case here.  I can understand the time between content.

What I can't understand is the lack of communication. Paradox is (was?) a niche developer that makes titles in a small genre for a dedicated group of fans, and they still produce weekly development diaries.

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1 hour ago, DougPhresh said:

Dragon Age: Origins took 5 years, Morrowind took 6, Half-Life 2 took 5.

Uh, OK. I don't know those games but did they involve developing whole new engines (or did Half Life 2 really use the same engine as Half Life 1?) rather then just producing some new 3D models, OOBs, and scenarios?  Should it really take 3+ years to take CMRT to the end of the war, especially when it seems a significant portion of the work would have been developed for CMFB?  

 

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