Sexual harassment (and worse) in gaming

[John Kettler]

Found this by a fluke, and the title is somewhat off putting, but this hair-raising article is, in my view, must reading for all of us, for it is about a huge problem in our own gaming community, both in person and online. It is hurting the victims and killing our hobby by driving away people who would otherwise play. This, of course, also hurts our beloved hobby stores. I've been gaming since I was 12 and used to attend cons frequently in my years during after high school. Have occasionally managed to get to one since. I had NO idea anything like what's described went on, and I must say I'm repelled and disgusted with what this woman reports from her own direct experience and that of others she knows. What she describes is a terrible reflection on our hobby and those who participate in it. To the extent we tolerate predatory behavior live or online (she's had both, the first in truly extreme form), we empower the perpetrators and further blacken our collective reputation. This problem is something I believe each and every one of us should and must address, at each and every incident we encounter.  I find this story shocking, horrifying, yet essential to read and internalize. Please, I beg you, read it, internalize it and spread the word to every gamer you know. This is deadly serious business, for this poor woman who received multiple death threats for speaking out! Sadly, she's not the first, either, for I know of at least one other high profile case. How many others have been treated likewise? Time for a zero tolerance policy on this insanity.

Tabletop Gaming has a White Male Terrorism Problem

http://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem 

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I was going to make a blasé comment, but having read the article it's actually pretty f*****g ghastly so I just can't.....We always had girls in our gaming groups, the gaming magazine I worked for had a lass on the staff, this really wasn't an issue that even existed for us when I was active in the gaming community.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Yes, because only white men do this type of horrible thing.

It's sickening what lengths these marxists will go to in order to demonize white men.

 

 

 

[John Kettler]

Andy,

Appreciate your wading through that long article and clearly getting it! Back when I was hitting the cons regularly decades ago, females were scarcer than hens' teeth. They were practically in the same category as unicorn encounters. Happily, that's changed, and I saw a reality show a year or so ago in which men and women alike played the same four popular big name FPS games and went head to head for something like a $100,000 prize and a sponsorship deal. Don't recall who won, but the ladies gave as good as they got, much to the shock of the men, who clearly expected to dominate and had never encountered kickbutt female FPS players. Let's say there was some bitter kvetching about the "unfairness" of that, for it was clear they had a flawed belief only guys could play these games and that girls should stick to Legends of Zelda and such. Wrong! I used to play D&D with a group of friends, and the girlfriend, later, the wife, of one was a regular participant. And I also recall brother Ed's then girlfriend used to play "Alien Space" with us on the living room floor and that later his wife, in some sort of DYO ship space battle game, used to give him fits with her specially designed ships. The worst wargame thrashing I ever got was from sister Mary who didn't set up her forces "rationally" in Kriegspiel, so when the game began she steamrolled me with her entire force which was on my border! I used to play "Tragic the Slathering" with a couple I was close to, both of whom were also ace "Up Front" players. Unfortunately for him, in an ongoing battle to win the tournaments (kept swapping the win) she beat him in what turned out to be the last officially AH sanctioned tournament! This was a terrible blow to his considerable ego. Some years ago, there was one overt female of the Forums and a couple of suspected ones. She was definitely being hit on, but nothing I would call harassment per se, and other Forumites brought the overly eager up short if they got too boisterous, lest we drive her off. Don't know why she left. We may still have a few ladies with us, but they are in Stealth mode, though I have some vague memory of a Member who would neither confirm no deny being female.

Col Deadmarsh,

Most of the gaming community, in this country anyway,  is composed of white males. The lady is Canadian, she's writing of her experiences there, and it's a nation which is also far more white than any other race, so I believe her assertion regarding white males is valid as a general statement. This in no way means that other races' males aren't involved in the reprehensible behaviors she so scathingly describes, but just that the principal racial group is white, for it constitutes the vast majority of the total gaming population. If you don't believe me, go to a game store on the weekend when the gamers are out in force and see for yourself. I've never been to ComiCon, but I have read of numerous complaints of inappropriate behavior (groping especially, along with blatantly sexual comments) there toward female cosplayers in particular and, to a lesser degree, female attendees as a whole. Believe some measures have been reluctantly taken to address this, but whether or not they have actual teeth and are enforced, I simply don't know. 

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited June 4, 2017 by John Kettler

[AttorneyAtWar]

20 hours ago, Col Deadmarsh said:

It's sickening what lengths these marxists will go to in order to demonize white men.

 

 

 

LOL.

You're kidding right?

 

[Wicky]

 

[StieliAlpha]

3 hours ago, Raptorx7 said:

LOL.

You're kidding right?

 

Honestly, I don't think he is kidding.

[StieliAlpha]

On 4.6.2017 at 0:01 PM, John Kettler said:

Found this by a fluke, and the title is somewhat off putting, but this hair-raising article is, in my view, must reading for all of us, for it is about a huge problem in our own gaming community, both in person and online. It is hurting the victims and killing our hobby by driving away people who would otherwise play. This, of course, also hurts our beloved hobby stores. I've been gaming since I was 12 and used to attend cons frequently in my years during after high school. Have occasionally managed to get to one since. I had NO idea anything like what's described went on, and I must say I'm repelled and disgusted with what this woman reports from her own direct experience and that of others she knows. What she describes is a terrible reflection on our hobby and those who participate in it. To the extent we tolerate predatory behavior live or online (she's had both, the first in truly extreme form), we empower the perpetrators and further blacken our collective reputation. This problem is something I believe each and every one of us should and must address, at each and every incident we encounter.  I find this story shocking, horrifying, yet essential to read and internalize. Please, I beg you, read it, internalize it and spread the word to every gamer you know. This is deadly serious business, for this poor woman who received multiple death threats for speaking out! Sadly, she's not the first, either, for I know of at least one other high profile case. How many others have been treated likewise? Time for a zero tolerance policy on this insanity.

Tabletop Gaming has a White Male Terrorism Problem

http://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem 

Regards,

John Kettler

Thanks for bringing this up, John.

Unfortunately, reports about physical and online harrasment of female gamers of on-line games are nothing new. One find's them in increasing numbers over the past few years.

Needless, to say: Absolutely unacceptable behaviour on account of the harassers.

Fortunately, I think I can say that our community is different. Well, at least I hope so. The average CM player is certainly not the average MRPG player...

[Geckocalypse]

That article is so fake it's incredible.  She just wrote that to get attention to herself by pretending to be a victim. Wargamers are a scary bunch, but do you really believe ithat a police officer called her a drunk slut over the telephone? Or the part of chanting "Old enough to bleed"? Harassment exists, but this person is just spouting out nonsense to create drama. Every time I have ever been into a game store the guys seem more loud and obnoxious than anything else. They all seem really eager to get more people into the games.

 

And I also think that it's  far worse online. Most people aren't going to act that belligerent in person.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Geckocalypse

[slysniper]

I read the article also and am in the camp that its just sick as to how some people are and that they have no respect for others and what they will do to them. (woman being on the top of the list apparently as to the target of such actions)

As to it being a problem within the gaming communities, no real surprise to me actually. There is plenty of unbalanced people that turn to games to find a way to deal with their pitiful lives. So, yes a place where you can find some really disturbed humans.

So no wonder , we hardly see any woman in the hobby if this is a reflection of what they experience

 

[StieliAlpha]

16 minutes ago, Geckocalypse said:

That article is so fake it's incredible.  She just wrote that to get attention to herself by pretending to be a victim. Wargamers are a scary bunch, but do you really believe ithat a police officer called her a drunk slut over the telephone? Or the part of chanting "Old enough to bleed"? Harassment exists, but this person is just spouting out nonsense to create drama. Every time I have ever been into a game store the guys seem more loud and obnoxious than anything else. They all seem really eager to get more people into the games.

 

And I also think that it's  far worse online. Most people aren't going to act that belligerent in person.

What means "fake" in the time of "alternate facts"??

[StieliAlpha]

6 minutes ago, slysniper said:

I read the article also and am in the camp that its just sick as to how some people are and that they have no respect for others and what they will do to them. (woman being on the top of the list apparently as to the target of such actions)

As to it being a problem within the gaming communities, no real surprise to me actually. There is plenty of unbalanced people that turn to games to find a way to deal with their pitiful lives. So, yes a place where you can find some really disturbed humans.

So no wonder , we hardly see any woman in the hobby if this is a reflection of what they experience

 

And, yes, I agree to the "online people" objection.

[Geckocalypse]

1 hour ago, StieliAlpha said:

What means "fake" in the time of "alternate facts"??

I don't understand what you mean.  I agree that anyone getting harassed is unacceptable, but I also don't encourage people pretending to be victims, and drawing attention to false, or wildy exaggerated articles that seem to be attacking a group. There might be some small grain of truth in some of the examples she gives, but I'm sure most of it is bull****, or that she is outright lying for attention.

1 hour ago, slysniper said:

So no wonder , we hardly see any woman in the hobby if this is a reflection of what they experience

 

The reason you don't see many women is because it simply isn't aimed towards them. Most think it looks boring or stupid, I have actually heard this from them, same thing with things like MTG. Wargames are aimed towards males.  If they wanted to play the games I don't think that a couple of assholes would stop them. Would you stop doing something you enjoy because of a few people? You would just find someone else to play with. Apparently Malifaux draws a lot of women in though.

[StieliAlpha]

27 minutes ago, Geckocalypse said:

I don't understand what you mean.  I agree that anyone getting harassed is unacceptable, but I also don't encourage people pretending to be victims, and drawing attention to false, or wildy exaggerated articles that seem to be attacking a group. There might be some small grain of truth in some of the examples she gives, but I'm sure most of it is bull****, or that she is outright lying for attention.

The reason you don't see many women is because it simply isn't aimed towards them. Most think it looks boring or stupid, I have actually heard this from them, same thing with things like MTG. Wargames are aimed towards males.  If they wanted to play the games I don't think that a couple of assholes would stop them. Would you stop doing something you enjoy because of a few people? You would just find someone else to play with. Apparently Malifaux draws a lot of women in though.

My friend, what exactly are you trying to defend?

[Geckocalypse]

21 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said:

My friend, what exactly are you trying to defend?

I'm just saying that the article is nonsense. I'm saying that it's a serious issue, but we shouldn't listen and give attention  to people who are biased and attack other groups themselves.The article is less about equality and more about making the nerds look bad.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Geckocalypse

[StieliAlpha]

3 minutes ago, Geckocalypse said:

I'm just saying that the article is nonsense. I'm saying that it's a serious issue, but we shouldn't listen and give attention  to people who are biased and attack other groups themselves.

Ok, that's a start.

- Why is the article nonsense? Any evidence except your gut feeling?

- Sexual harassment even a serious issue? Very good. Serious issues should be treated and answered seriously. Would you not agree?

- Not listen? On the contrary: I think, one should listen to any body. If you had an issue with something, it very well may be that I don't understand what your problem is. But still it would be an issue for you, which you most probably would like to see properly addressed and not neglected.

So, this lady has an issue with sexual harassment in gaming. Is she exaggerating? May be. I don't know, but my gut feeling (and some reading) tells me: Most likely, she is not too far off.

Does that make sexual harassment in any form and place acceptable? Certainly not. And so we should say.

[Machor]

As someone who served in law enforcement and now lives in Canada...

3 hours ago, Geckocalypse said:

do you really believe ithat a police officer called her a drunk slut over the telephone? Or the part of chanting "Old enough to bleed"?

+1000

[John Kettler]

Geckocalypse,

If I haven't already greeted you (unsure), welcome aboard!

Regret to inform you that, based on my own direct, bitter experience, having the cops blow off an assault report, even from a white  man, is all too credible. I did mine in person, too! In my case, the evidence included a shredded T-shirt and a set of bleeding furrows on my chest from the same attack which ruined my shirt. I'd been having an argument  with my apartment mate about who should move out of our apartment, which was situated two miles from where I worked. He'd been laid off but reassigned down south a fair distance, but apparently wanted me out so he could move in his girlfriend. We were in the kitchen having the "No, you should move" argument when, all of a sudden, I couldn't see (eyes instantly closed as glasses were knocked clean off my face), which was disorienting, and my chest hurt. When I looked down, I saw my shirt shredded, and below that, fingernail tracks through my skin. I was 5' 11" and he ~ 6' 7" and built like an NBA player. He happened to be trained in martial arts, too, and I think what he did to me was known as a tiger's strike.

After viciously assaulting me (actually Assault & Battery under California law), he left the apartment, I went straight to the El Segundo Police Department and spent two hours in an empty waiting room waiting for someone to talk to me so I could file a report and get him arrested. I specifically said I wanted to press charges, too. And what response did I get on this lazy Saturday? The officer blew it off as a homosexual spat! Neither of us was one. My assailant was subsequently interviewed but never arrested. I fled to my parents' home in fear for my life, and took a day off to crash move when he was at work, for I knew he had firearms and was willing to use violence!  Consequently, the cold shoulder and insults she reports when she went to the police are all too believable. You failed to notice, too, that she wasn't talking about wargaming but gaming. "Call of Cthulhu," for example, isn't a wargame (ought to know, for I've played it extensively), after all, and she specifically used the word "gaming" in her title, not "wargaming."

StieliAlpha,

You're welcome! The average CM player doesn't harass people, but there are some who can and do attack people to the point of damaging their well-being and practically driving them mad. I know, for I've repeatedly been their direct and particular target off and on for years now.

slysniper,

Indeed.

Machor,

If you're referring to wargaming, then I'd generally agree, but to gaming in general, and there are multitudes of games, then no. D&D is by no means confined to males, and many females play, for example, what I call "Tragic the Slathering" and other collectible card games, such as Pokemon, not to mention things like the global hit "Settlers of Katan." For years, the half sister of one of my closest friends was involved in every non-wargame we played: "D&D,"  "Paranoia," "Call of Cthulhu," etc. Last week's episode of iZombie was built around a mixed gender group of dyed-in-the-wool D&D players who's been meeting for many years. Based on my recent observations, while you'll find considerable numbers of females gaming, they typically won't be playing wargames. By the way, there are now firms which produce computer games specifically designed to appeal to females. Below is the latest breakdown on what women and girls prefer to play. Figures are expressed in terms of females as a percentage of total  number playing the game. They are absolutely dominant in Match-3, constituting 69% of all the people who play, and in Family/Farms sims, where they also constitute 69%.

http://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/

Regards,

John Kettler
 

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by John Kettler

[Geckocalypse]

1 hour ago, StieliAlpha said:

Ok, that's a start.

- Why is the article nonsense? Any evidence except your gut feeling?

- Sexual harassment even a serious issue? Very good. Serious issues should be treated and answered seriously. Would you not agree?

- Not listen? On the contrary: I think, one should listen to any body. If you had an issue with something, it very well may be that I don't understand what your problem is. But still it would be an issue for you, which you most probably would like to see properly addressed and not neglected.

So, this lady has an issue with sexual harassment in gaming. Is she exaggerating? May be. I don't know, but my gut feeling (and some reading) tells me: Most likely, she is not too far off.

Does that make sexual harassment in any form and place acceptable? Certainly not. And so we should say.

 

My issue is that she seems to be attacking geeks and making stuff up to draw negative attention. Of course you can't prove  that it isn't true, but you can't prove it isn't made up  either.  It's just that a lot of her experiences seem to be highly unlikely, or massively exaggerated. People do this all the time. They try to further their agenda, while attacking other people and using them as a scapegoat. It happens to video games all the time, and usually it's just to cause a riot more than anything else.   It's not "blowing off the issue" to me, it's just that we shouldn't be taking information based from biased or false information. We should be welcoming of anyone, but when we give someone on the internet attention for giving slanderous and hateful information, we not only reinforce people doing such things for the publicity, it also makes everyone in that hobby look bad. But thankfully everyone I've seen is very welcoming towards everyone.

39 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

Geckocalypse,

If I haven't already greeted you (unsure), welcome aboard!

 

Thank you, nice to meet you.

Sorry that you had to have such an experience. I wasn't trying to say that such things don't happen, its just that I would think any police officer who would want to keep their job would call someone a "slut' over the telephone. They surely record phone calls, and I think it's unlikely that he would do that. Or it's the most hateful police station ever.

[John Kettler]

Geckocalypse,

You're welcome! I worked part time for the campus police decades ago at my college, and you would've been shocked by some of the things the officers said. Granted, they didn't say them over the radio. Here's some food for thought on sexual harassment at game cons and comic-cons. Useful information and some fascinating insights into motivation, for it appears the abused have become abusers.

https://thegeekanthropologist.com/2015/06/19/the-character-of-sexual-harassment-at-cons/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/13/gtfo-sexism-in-gaming_n_6804106.html

13% of the 2015 Comic-Con attendees in 2015 reported being sexually harassed. At 130,000 attendees, that's 10,000 people!

http://metro.co.uk/2015/07/09/is-sexual-harassment-ruining-comic-con-for-cosplayers-5286543/

Written anti-harassment policy, when publicized, causes harassment to plummet. People are being banned, too, even reported to police as the assailed, and their allies, fight back.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/dont-look-away-fighting-sexual-harassment-in-the-scifi-1785704207

Like it or not, the problem of sexual harassment in gaming online and off, and at various non-gaming cons, is real and frighteningly pervasive.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

 

[JonS]

So, basically, you're JAQing off.

[slysniper]

Look, stop making yourself look foolish by trying to point out if what she has brought forth is truth or lies. It does not matter, I have been around gamers for 40 years and I have met enough and seen enough that I do not need her opinions to  draw my own conclusions of if there is issues out there.

What matters is, these type of events can happen and when they do, what are you going to do about it.

For me I can honestly say, in my presence I have never seen such behavior, Of course, if it happened in my presence I would likely respond in a way that might make for a very bad day for some jerk. So maybe people know me well enough to not do such acts in my presence.

But on the other hand, there as been enough contact with some, lets just say very interesting people over the years. Personally I have no problem with them, or do they pose a threat to me. But I can honestly say, I would not ever introduce them to my family or to any of the woman in my life, because in truth, they are not what I would call as people I would trust with anything of value in my life. 

And rest assured woman can enjoy gaming, even games that generally are on subjects men like. No, not a majority of them, but more than you see in the hobby. I have a daughter in-law that likely could kick almost anyone's ass on any game they choose, including war games. She is a master of developing strategies in any type of game and her dad was a colonial in the army and she is army through and through. 

[BletchleyGeek]

16 hours ago, slysniper said:

I read the article also and am in the camp that its just sick as to how some people are and that they have no respect for others and what they will do to them. (woman being on the top of the list apparently as to the target of such actions)

As to it being a problem within the gaming communities, no real surprise to me actually. There is plenty of unbalanced people that turn to games to find a way to deal with their pitiful lives. So, yes a place where you can find some really disturbed humans.

So no wonder , we hardly see any woman in the hobby if this is a reflection of what they experience

Not much to add to what @slysniper wrote here.

I have also been in the past rudely woken up from the dream/delusion that my hobbies were "safe" for everyone. Thanks for sharing the link @John Kettler and sharing your story as well.

[StieliAlpha]

16 hours ago, John Kettler said:

 

StieliAlpha,

You're welcome! The average CM player doesn't harass people, but there are some who can and do attack people to the point of damaging their well-being and practically driving them mad. I know, for I've repeatedly been their direct and particular target off and on for years now

Hi John,

from my first post in this thread, you may understand, that I am well aware that not everybody in this community is the "average CM player". ?

But then, it can't be too bad. After my last post, I expected a **** storm coming, which did not appear. Certainly a good sign. ?

[para]

Very interesting topic John and thanks for sharing.