Jump to content

Five Famous GPW Songs


Recommended Posts

Came across this and thought the CMRT players might enjoy the music and the stories.

https://www.rbth.com/arts/music/2016/05/06/rallying-the-nation-5-famous-soviet-songs-from-wwii_590913

The Lube mega hot "Kombat" isn't from the GPW but about it, having formed part of the soundtrack for the Russian TV series "Shtrafbat" on the realities of being in a penal battalion. Was going to post a translated version I found, but the translation is so bad even I can find glaring errors in it, and I don't speak Russian! This is a live performance, to a huge, involved crowd. Clearly, the Russian young people not only haven't forgotten the GPW but are deeply affected by it to this day. Can you imagine anything remotely similar these days here in the US? Toby Keith's "Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue" as big a hit as it was, simply didn't speak to war the way "Kombat" does. That song has gotten to me before, but Lube's live performance, with him standing there in GPW uniform, moved me to outright tears. 

Someone English subtitled (but apparently not well) "Shtrafbat" granting me my wish. Unfortunately, I have to go review financials, so shall have to postpone gratification!

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shtrafbat is critised for a lot of fiction. The worst rumors about the war: attack through minefields, NKVD shoots retreating soldiers, criminals as major part of penalty units. Please don't consider as realistic movie. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, DMS said:

Shtrafbat is critised for a lot of fiction. The worst rumors about the war: attack through minefields, NKVD shoots retreating soldiers, criminals as major part of penalty units. Please don't consider as realistic movie. :)

DMS,

You'd like to believe they never happened, but you'd be wrong!  In Penalty Strike, the author talks explicitly about his unit being ordered by an uncaring Army (the formation) commander (previous one hadn't used his men that way) to attack directly through a known minefield, resulting in horrendous and wholly unnecessary casualties. That writer was first a Platoon Commander and then a Company Commander in an Independent Penal Battalion composed of disgraced officers. HSU Loza, a tank officer who served exclusively in Lend Lease tanks, in his Defending the Soviet Motherland says his unit was ordered by the NKVD to form a blocking detachment to stop Russian troops who routed after being hit by a panzer attack. First warning shots were fired over their heads, then aimed fire when the retreaters didn't stop, killing several before the men halted their flight. Loza and his men felt sick about it but had no choice with their own necks on the line. 

By definition, those sent to penal units were criminals, sometimes of the worst sort. But forget the penal units, I can show you an account in Panzer Killers where the interviewee was so horrified by what happened in his unit when former prisoners in the Gulag were released and sent to the Red Army, where, once arrived in his unit, they instituted prison discipline so horrible even that battle hardened veteran refused to speak of it!  

There's another account from the book in which a glory hungry Battalion Commander, against the direct advice of a number of officers, including the one commanding the Destroyer Battery (4 x 47 mm ATG) which had a ringside seat,  successively ordered, after the one before it failed, four (4) frontal attacks! The ATG Battery CO was so incensed by the wanton destruction on an entire desperately needed Rifle Battalion that he got the Osobists (NKVD) directly involved, resulting in a tribunal in which such devastating evidence was presented by multiple officers the glory hound was sentenced to be shot forthwith. He saved his life by asking instead to be sent to the Penal Battalion where he would "expiate my crime in my own blood." He was stripped of rank and awards, reduced to private and sent as he asked. Believe he was killed a short time later.

I read recently (forget where) the Russians sent some 422,000 men to penal units during the GPW. Drawing on Krivosheev and others, one researcher concluded Red Army military tribunals executed a whopping 135,000 people.  At an average Rifle Division strength of 7000, that translates to obliterating nineteen (19) division equivalents! You may find this discussion of barrier troops of interest, both generally and because of a fascinating tidbit. In a Penal Company which started with 198 men, only six (6) survived. That's roughly a 3% survival rate and with the annihilating loss sustained over a very short period. The guy who wrote Penalty Company describes how wholesale casualties could result from but a single battle. Remember, the penal units led the way and always at the point of main effort. The shtrafbat Wiki is a useful read. It cites Krivosheev's figure of 427,910 soldiers sent to penal units. "The total number of people convicted to penal units from September 1942 to May 1945 was 427,910, very few of whom were known to have survived the war.[4]"

You may also be interested to know that per Suvorov/Rezun, who was both a T-55 Tank Company CO and a BTR-60 Company CO in the 1960s, the barrier units/blocking detachments would've been put in place to (wait for it) be sure the penal units kept attacking, paving the way through enemy defenses for the regular, more valuable troops behind them! It worked for the Red Army during the GPW, and the Russians saw no reason to abandon what had worked so well before. Suvorov/Rezun, just before his commissioning as a tank officer, himself drew a stint in a Penal Company as a result of an officious general who delighted in writing up anyone who failed to recognize him promptly enough, and whoever had the duty always got the chop. His experience was  the melding of Kafka and cruety, with some actions so severe it's a wonder he wasn't rendered unfit to serve. He barely got out in time to graduate the tank academy and become an officer! He also talks of sitting in his command BTR-60, hatches buttoned, before the "liberation" of Czechoslovakia, painfully aware there were several people in there, separately reporting to the KGB, GLAVPUR (Red Army internal security), etc.  with him whose job was to shoot him if he showed any signs of not doing his job and refusing to advance.

The above, however unpalatable to you, is the reality of the dreadful truths underlying "Shtrafbat." Should also note the Independent Penal Companies, composed of disgraced NCOs and soldiers, had a separate title, which I saw while putting this together but now can't find.

On a related but separate note, I found a great site for Russian song lyrics in Russian and English! Here's the one for Lube's Kombat. No more of that "fire the rockets" nonsense.

http://russmus.net/song/796

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Edited by John Kettler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, John Kettler said:

By definition, those sent to penal units were criminals, sometimes of the worst sort.

Having read many of the same books as you, I agree with some of what you say, but the statement above is not correct in my view...my understanding is that a large part of those sent to penal battalions were sent for disciplinary infractions, not because they were criminals (in the common usage of the term).  The example you gave of the glory-hungry commander is a case in point.

Also, I view DMS as a very credible source on Red Army matters and so would not write off his opinion so easily. It is possible, for instance, that the incidents recorded in the various memoirs were extraordinary incidents rather than every day occurrences.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, John Kettler said:

DMS,

You'd like to believe they never happened, but you'd be wrong! 

 

Penalty companies were organised in the army, below you can see OOB. They were not armed by "1 rifle for a 2 men", company was well armed, a little better then a regular company. 2x82mm mortars,12 MGs, 19 SMGs. There were 5-10 companies per army. You can estimate the ratio.

Penalty battalions were organised in fronts, 1-3 battalions.

If NKVD blocking units regulary shot penalty companies with MGs, why to give them mortars? They would supress NKVD MGs, wouldn't they? :)

In Losa's book he describes dramatical situation, when someone had to stop fleeing units. It was not a regular case, like it is shown in movies like "Shtrafbat" or "Enemy at the gates". In reality, NKVD blocking units were set in rear, at the crossroads or villages, to filter deserters and spies. They were equivalent of military police units in the U.S. army.

 

The personell of penalty units were military criminals, not civilian criminals like it is shown in the film. I like that they are shown as most effective part of the unit. Ex-thief who kills Germans with the knife e.t.c.. Lovers of Russian criminal subculture would be pleased by this film. :)

Former GULAG prisoners were sent in regular units.

 

Penalty units exist in Russian army now, they existed when Rezun was serving. But they are not for attacking before valuable regular units, they are just for punishing. They march all day and quote military rules. I don't know what he writes about, may be it is just another "cool story" for his readers. Problem of memoirs is that authors use to tell "sensational stories" to readers. Someone tells the real rumors, someone compose them.

And "Shtrafbat" movie collects the worst of real cases, mixes them with "shocking rumors" and creates a awfull picture that is fun to watch, but has a little common with reality.

штрафная рота.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't worry about that drivel fella, it's just a feeble effort to compensate for the fact that Soviets did all the really s****y work removing the fascist abscess from European soil.  :mellow: 

There are roughly 25-30 million reasons for being thankful to the former USSR IMHO, whether you liked it or not.  default_poppy.gif

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead
Link to comment
Share on other sites

76mm,

DMS called a series of things the "worst  rumors of the war," to which I responded with facts which refuted his claims. That doesn't mean what I report was the norm, merely that it happened, itself sufficient to destroy his argument. I don't have any breakdown on what exactly sent soldiers to penal units, but for sure they involved many matters which weren't minor and would've been criminally actionable in the civil realm, such as assault, theft, murder. These are not disciplinary infractions but crimes. Cowardice in battle, however understandable now in terms of what the human psyche can handle, was a crime, SIW (self-inflicted wounds) were criminal acts (because they deprived the State of otherwise usable soldiers). Abandonment of weapons wasn't a disciplinary infraction, either. Speaking of SIW, I would note this was a military crime punishable even in ancient times and is substantiated by Roman legionary records. The glory hungry battalion commander was, from a criminal standpoint, guilty at a minimum of mass negligent homicide and enormous wastage of a scarce State resources (line infantry). Again, not a disciplinary infraction. 

DMS,

I never said NKVD regularly shot soldiers from penal units, but the threat they offered was very much part of the dynamic, just as much as part of the reason officers carry pistols in battle is that they have an affirmative duty, should the situation dictate, to shoot their own men if necessary to stop a rout. If it was true of the British in WW II, then this was assuredly the case for the Russians in the GPW. I think you are being very kind in equating NKVD activities to being equivalent to US MPs. Guarantee you the frontoviki didn't think so! They rightly feared the NKVD, who held draconian powers. Nowhere did I assert released Gulag denizens were in penal units. The case I reported was a regular unit. As for your take on penal units during the Cold War and today, Suvorov/Rezun was quite clear that in wartime they would again be leading the way, just as their forebears had in the GPW. The attitude toward such people was the same, scum, so why should their use change?

 Russian line units early in the war were in that situation of having fewer weapons than men. IRemember.ru has at least one such account in which only the first batch of guys received a "Mosin and a handful of cartridges," while the others following were expected to pick up the rifles of the fallen and carry on. Regarding shtrafbat having mortars, a handful of same isn't going to do much more than annoy a force having effectively limitless resources should there be any local success against it. Besides, the men in the shtrafbat were men with something to prove; were men seeking redemption in a very high risk unit. By the way, the same guy who was a DP gunner then a destroyer battery CO had a brother who commanded tankodesantniki. He was wounded twice and invalided out by a third wound. He was lucky, for the casualty rates for the tankodesantniki were worse than in the penal units!

If possible, please provide at least the highlights of the shtrafbat TO&E you provided.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, John Kettler said:

I never said NKVD regularly shot soldiers from penal units, but the threat they offered was very much part of the dynamic, just as much as part of the reason officers carry pistols in battle is that they have an affirmative duty, should the situation dictate, to shoot their own men if necessary to stop a rout. If it was true of the British in WW II, then this was assuredly the case for the Russians in the GPW. I think you are being very kind in equating NKVD activities to being equivalent to US MPs. Guarantee you the frontoviki didn't think so! They rightly feared the NKVD, who held draconian powers. Nowhere did I assert released Gulag denizens were in penal units. The case I reported was a regular unit. As for your take on penal units during the Cold War and today, Suvorov/Rezun was quite clear that in wartime they would again be leading the way, just as their forebears had in the GPW. The attitude toward such people was the same, scum, so why should their use change?

Then excuse me! I criticized the film. In the film you can see NKVD MGs shooting soldiers in backs, criminals as main power of the penalty units e.t.c.

Military police also arrested those soldiers who broke the discipline, functions were the same. But - situation in Red army was much worse, as dozens millions of civilians were drafted. Some of them didn't want to fight. Some of them didn't like the Soviet goverment, someone collaborated with nazis. Furthemore, Germans regulalry sent spies. Scale of "Special departments" actions was much more than MP, of course. + counter intelligence functions. According to OOB, Special department was set in rifle division HQ. Not much to fear fronoviks in rifle battalions, right? As they have to deal with spies, deserters, discipline breakers. In tank units OOB (below division) I dind't find special department at all.

What's about modern Russian penalty units - they really wear WW 2 uniform to show the roots. Now they are called discipline battallions, I don't know - may be there were some secret plans to throw them in attacks, But It is hardly real. Rezun is writer. He wants to picture bright image to public, describing "theoretically possible" as really possible.

   
18 hours ago, John Kettler said:


 Russian line units early in the war were in that situation of having fewer weapons than men. IRemember.ru has at least one such account in which only the first batch of guys received a "Mosin and a handful of cartridges," while the others following were expected to pick up the rifles of the fallen and carry on.

Actually, rifles always were in large quantity, If you see production number, it was much more than needed. In 1941 reinforcements that were moving to the front could be catched by Germans unarmed or poorly unarmed, but that's not because of production limitations.

Artillery crews not always had the carbines, that is true. I think that it was not to bear additional weight.

Penalty company OOB, october 1944

1. HQ  2. 3 rifle platoons 3. mortar platoon 4. medical section 5. supply section

mortars - 2;  DP - 12; SMG - 19; rifles - 89

Constant personnel - 12; rotational personnell - 141. 8 officers, 3 sergants, 1 private - constant, others rotational.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DMS,

I haven't seen "Shtrafbat" other than as the visuals accompanying the Lube song "Kombat."  Consequently, I haven't seen what you have and therefore don't have the same frame of reference regarding it or the responses, and certainly not those of someone hailing from that neck of the woods. I agree that as a general case the NKVD wasn't shooting the penal unit soldiers, and I certainly agree that Gulag criminals weren't sent to the penal units, which were reserved for disgraced soldiers. There are several accounts in Panzer Killers of Special Department types being all too ready to take swift and draconian action at the least sign of apparent cowardice, as seen for example, in the case of the ATG gunner who avoided disaster when ordered to abandon the gun and retreat by bringing out the sight for the gun, as per the regs,  whereas the officer got the chop over not having his map case or pistol, both lost in frantic combat. From my read, the Osobists weren't hanging around at DIV HQ, but were much farther down, ready to act at the drop of a hat. One poor devil got sent to a penal unit because, without knowing who it was, he cursed the new Regimental CO in the dark, thinking he was being pranked by his fellow soldiers. I got no sense Suvorov/Rezun was exaggerating about plans to put the denizens of the "Glasshouse" out in front if war broke out. Regarding rifle availability, I reported what was said in the account/s I read on IRemember,ru. Thanks for the TO&E info. Rotational personnel--what a fabulous euphemism!

Regards,

John Kettler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, DMS said:

Actually, rifles always were in large quantity

This is corroborated by Chris McNab:

"All in all, the Shpagin presented a compelling combination of advantages, and it was adopted as the ‘Submachine Gun of the Shpagin System, Type 1941’ by the Defence Committee of the Council of People’s Commissars on 21 December 1940, manufacture beginning in the autumn of 1941. In testimony to its suitability for mass production, by the spring of 1942 Soviet factories were rolling out 3,000 units a day, which resulted in a total wartime production figure of more than five million guns. The production times were not only spurred by political incentives – local Communist Party members were given responsibility for fulfilling quotas in their district – but also by ingenious repurposing of the materials. For example, it was discovered that a Mosin-Nagant rifle barrel could be cut in half to form two barrels for PPSh-41 guns."

Soviet Submachine Guns of World War II. Osprey, 2014, pp. 11-2 [my italics]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, John Kettler said:

I haven't seen "Shtrafbat" other than as the visuals accompanying the Lube song "Kombat."

Excuse me again! Damned language barrier.

Shtrafbat is "favorite" movie or Russian mil-history lovers for the highest rate of myths, so I could not resist to comment.

20 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Rotational personnel--what a fabulous euphemism!

May be "variable", переменный. Well, the term was 3 monthes - not only death or injury was a reason for "rotation".

16 hours ago, Machor said:

For example, it was discovered that a Mosin-Nagant rifle barrel could be cut in half to form two barrels for PPSh-41 guns

+ small remain for TT pistol. :))

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DMS,

I thought "Shtrafbat" was a TV series in Russia. Is there also a movie? If so, this has further added to the already more than adequate levels of confusion! 

Machor (and DMS)

Have no idea how I missed the remarks of making two new PPSh41 (never mind a TT as well from one old Mosin-Nagant rifle barrel. Very clever!

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Edited by John Kettler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/4/2017 at 2:49 AM, John Kettler said:

By definition, those sent to penal units were criminals, sometimes of the worst sort.

On 6/5/2017 at 7:01 PM, John Kettler said:

Cowardice in battle, however understandable now in terms of what the human psyche can handle, was a crime, SIW (self-inflicted wounds) were criminal acts (because they deprived the State of otherwise usable soldiers). Abandonment of weapons wasn't a disciplinary infraction, either. Speaking of SIW, I would note this was a military crime punishable even in ancient times and is substantiated by Roman legionary records. The glory hungry battalion commander was, from a criminal standpoint, guilty at a minimum of mass negligent homicide and enormous wastage of a scarce State resources (line infantry). Again, not a disciplinary infraction. 

I guess if you widen the definition of "crime" wide enough, all soldiers in all armies would be considered "criminals" (killers, arsonists).  That said, the infractions described in your second quote are exactly what I would call disciplinary infractions, not "crimes", because they not what would be considered a crime in a civilian matter (cowardice?  losing property?).  Calling something a "disciplinary infractions" does not mean that it is a minor infraction--things like falling asleep on sentry duty, desertion (also what I would call disciplinary infractions) have always been very severely punished.  But they are not what I would call crimes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

76mm,

SIW in the Roman Legions was a capital offense, subject to death by the rightly dreaded fustuarium (beaten to death by one's fellows with cudgels). Stealing from fellow soldiers was also a capital offense (in Roman civil law, a theft conviction would've cost the offender his right hand), as was falling asleep while on guard duty, espionage, treason, etc. In my universe, all but theft are flat out crimes. Abandoning military equipment on the battlefield without proper authorization or following procedures is a double crime. It not only unlawfully deprives the State of a valuable (oft expensive) resource, thus, is a form of theft, but it materially aids the enemy's own war effort. Just look at the plethora of Russian equipment taken into service by the Germans after being abandoned intact. Show me a nation in which aiding and abetting the enemy in time of war isn't criminal. 

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/6/2017 at 3:15 PM, Machor said:

For example, it was discovered that a Mosin-Nagant rifle barrel could be cut in half to form two barrels for PPSh-41 guns."

That's been disputed on a particular gun forum that I frequent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guess it depend on which gun site or video you pick. Italics mine.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/10/foghorn/gun-review-ppsh-41/

(Fair Use)

The barrel was designed to use the same 7.62mm bore as the existing Russian arsenal of three-line rifles so that the same drilling and rifling machines could be used on all production guns to maximize throughput, and often production was further increased by taking an existing Mosin Nagant barrel and chopping it in half to make two PPSh-41 barrels. These design changes meant that the factories in Russia could produce a brand new PPSh-41 in as little as 7.3 machine hours compared to the nearly 14 hours required for the previous generation.

Chris McNab, who has impressive credentials, in his Soviet Submachine Guns of World War II (short title), page 12, says the same.

RecoilWeb says likewise.

http://www.recoilweb.com/ppsh-41-the-gun-that-saved-mother-russia-104261.html#ixzz4joTFmlwQ

(Fair Use)

"During the war production (time) was even further reduced where Mosin-Nagant rifle barrels were cut in half to make two PPSh-41 barrels!"

World War II Database says something similar, but in reference to repairing damaged PPSh-41s.

http://ww2db.com/weapon.php?q=61

(Fair Use)

"As noted earlier, the construction of PPSh-41 submachine guns was simple, thus damaged PPSh-41 barrels could be replaced by cutting down that of Mosin-Nagant rifles."

And FirearmsHistory presents a much more rational explanation of what we're debating. 

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-ppsh-41-submachine-gun.html

(Fair Use)

"The cartridge used for his weapon design was the 7.62x25 mm. Tokarev pistol cartridge, which was already in service with Soviet forces for some years previously. To simplify the production of barrels, he often used existing barrels designed for the Mosin-Nagant M1891 rifle, which were already bored for 7.62 mm. A single long M1891 barrel would be cut into two shorter barrels for the PPSh-41 as they both use 7.62 mm. diameter cartridges, and then each shorter barrel would have a chamber machined to accept the 7.62x25 mm. Tokarev cartridge. The barrels were chrome lined for extra reliability, but most of the other parts were much more cheaply produced."

 

By contrast, this gun grog calls it a myth.

ModernFirearms makes no mention of the issue in dispute, though this may be simply a space limitation driven by format.

http://modernfirearms.net/smg/rus/pca-41-e.html

What we really need to settle this is an official Russian account of PPSh-1941 production and repair practices. So far, I haven't seen one. Can our Russian speakers help, please?

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...