Jump to content

Command Friction 2.0


Recommended Posts

22 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Thanks for all the work on this. 

It's my pleasure, I enjoy this sort of thing, sometimes more than playing the game. ;)  I do really enjoy the design and problem solving aspect of work like this Command Friction project.

4 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

I'm looking forward to seeing how the system evolves with further playtesting as the AAR plays out. I'm planning on waiting to give the system a try until after the AAR is done, so that I have a good example to go by and to benefit from any changes to the system you make. Looking forward to it!

I should be able to get back to it this weekend.  I had been doing the geo-bachelor thing for the past year and a half;  my wife, son, and the dogs just moved to Virginia Beach with me (from Richmond) this past weekend (messing up my beautiful house ;) ), so my free time this week has been fleeting.  

Maybe you and I could play a small  email game using the rules after I finish this?  MOS, that offer is open to you as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This has to be the closest thing possible with CM (or at game) at simulating the complexities of command, control and individual small unit leader initiative. Fantastic work, Bill. It seems a bit overwhelming but it's awfully tempting to try something very small to see how it works. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

It's my pleasure, I enjoy this sort of thing, sometimes more than playing the game. ;)  I do really enjoy the design and problem solving aspect of work like this Command Friction project.

I should be able to get back to it this weekend.  I had been doing the geo-bachelor thing for the past year and a half;  my wife, son, and the dogs just moved to Virginia Beach with me (from Richmond) this past weekend (messing up my beautiful house ;) ), so my free time this week has been fleeting.  

Maybe you and I could play a small  email game using the rules after I finish this?  MOS, that offer is open to you as well.

No worries! These things take time. 

I would be very interested in doing a small(ish) PBEM game using these rules once you've completed this AAR. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Bud Backer said:

This has to be the closest thing possible with CM (or at game) at simulating the complexities of command, control and individual small unit leader initiative. Fantastic work, Bill. It seems a bit overwhelming but it's awfully tempting to try something very small to see how it works. 

Bud, it really isn't.. it may seem like that, but explaining how to use Google Sheets I think, makes it look more complex than it really is... download one of the templates and play around with it some.  

Have any on-going AARs I need to catch up on?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, SLIM said:

I'm going to give this a try sometime soon. I'm still on the Les Licornets scenario on the Road to Montebourg, (still trying to catch up to my old video series) and I'll plug this in to the battle and see how it runs.

Please let us know in this thread how it goes if you do use it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

RULE 1: Formations and Units MUST be within C2 range in order to receive either an HQ or a Unit Task change

  • Task changes are input at the end of the previous turn, and “rolled for” in the following turn’s order phase
  • Units can use change Tasks at any time, as long as they pass the Die Roll test (CHANGE TASK/USE INITIATIVE column must be => than the number in the DIE ROLL column)
Edited by Bil Hardenberger
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wanted to quickly make an explanation, that I just realized I failed to do during the AAR so far... in this scenario, and I assume many others, the support formation (in this case the Tank Platoon) is not directly subordinate to the Infantry Company, yet is obviously intended to be in support of the infantry.  There is also no HQ higher than the Company in this scenario.

In these cases, as long as both the Company HQ and the Tank HQ have functional radios we can assume that the Tank Platoon is in C2 Range.  Even though in reality they would never be on the same network and would be unable to communicate via radio.  Lose that radio link, or lose the Company HQ team, then we have problems... we cannot assume that whichever team takes over would automatically have comms with the tanks, alternately, lose the Tank Platoon HQ then the Tanks would lose their link to the infantry (Tank Platoons at this time had a Platoon network only, the Platoon HQ Tank would have an extra radio to communicate with Company)... thus in those situations I think the current Company HQ must be right next to the current Tank Platoon HQ in order to give a New Task.  This is a special case and opens a can of worms...

Please let me know your thoughts.

LOG+39b.png

Edited by Bil Hardenberger
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

<Snip> I think the current Company HQ must be right next to the current Tank Platoon HQ in order to give a New Task.  This is a special case and opens a can of worms...   Please let me know your thoughts.

It may provide an opportunity for more realistic game play.  The supporting tanks would probably be working with an infantry platoon and would coordinate through the infantry platoon commander who should have C2 with the chain of command.  So if the HQ tank or XO tank (or maybe any supporting tank?) is within X meters (50 meters?) of the infantry platoon HQ it is considered in C2 for Command Friction.  (This of course will not change the game mechanics of vertical information sharing but the horizontal info sharing will still work)  Also a liaison officer (any team/vehicle organic to the infantry unit with a radio?) might be assigned from the infantry to the supporting tanks.  The company XO meets the tanks along the MSR and takes them to where they are needed in the company A/O staying X meters from the leader tank.  If the liaison/platoon HQ & XO is KIA then the tanks will have to use initiative until the link is reestablished.  Might make mission type orders/explanation in the comments section of the tanks tasking line more important.  Just an idea and I'm not sure what a good distance would be.  Probably no more than 50 meters but maybe as low as 32 meters?   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

It may provide an opportunity for more realistic game play.  The supporting tanks would probably be working with an infantry platoon and would coordinate through the infantry platoon commander who should have C2 with the chain of command.  So if the HQ tank or XO tank (or maybe any supporting tank?) is within X meters (50 meters?) of the infantry platoon HQ it is considered in C2 for Command Friction.  (This of course will not change the game mechanics of vertical information sharing but the horizontal info sharing will still work)  Also a liaison officer (any team/vehicle organic to the infantry unit with a radio?) might be assigned from the infantry to the supporting tanks.  The company XO meets the tanks along the MSR and takes them to where they are needed in the company A/O staying X meters from the leader tank.  If the liaison/platoon HQ & XO is KIA then the tanks will have to use initiative until the link is reestablished.  Might make mission type orders/explanation in the comments section of the tanks tasking line more important.  Just an idea and I'm not sure what a good distance would be.  Probably no more than 50 meters but maybe as low as 32 meters?   

Good thoughts.. however tanks in WW2, I don't believe (ready to be corrected by anybody with information showing otherwise) and infantry could not communicate directly via radio (different crystals, it was not as simple as adjusting the freq).. tanks had telephones on their rear to facilitate infantry-tank comms.  This is why I said the infantry in this case needs to be right next to the tank, as in the same action spot.  

Found a good topic on this subject - Tank - Infantry Communications

100_0828.jpg

Edited by Bil Hardenberger
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Tank phones were the norm and they made a big difference.....Your solution is spot on IMHO. 

After reading the above link, I am thinking of making it thus for any tanks supporting an infantry unit (for a supported unit up to Company size, Battalion HQs should be able to communicate with all its formations).. so in the example of this scenario, the Infantry Company HQ will have to be co-located with the Tank HQ (same Action Spot) in order to change the Task... I like this and I will make it so for my AAR game to see how it plays out.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

<Snip> could not communicate directly via radio (different crystals, it was not as simple as adjusting the freq).. tanks had telephones on their rear to facilitate infantry-tank comms.  This is why I said the infantry in this case needs to be right next to the tank, as in the same action spot.  <Snip> 

That's interesting.  I had the distance way to big.  I like the reasoning (Tank phone) of needing to be in the same action spot to receive a change of task.  

I guess if a tank was unbuttoned the TC could communicate with infantry a few action spots away but that may be making things to complicated. Checking if the TC is buttoned or unbuttoned etc.  It would be simpler to remember "Same Action Spot".

Wouldn't the same concept work if the infantry platoon HQ was next to the tank platoon HQ?  Or to take it a step further what if a runner (2 man scout team) was sent to the same spot as the platoon HQ tank (or any tank with a working radio so that tank could radio the other tanks with the info) and relay the change of task?

I was just wondering if the platoon HQ tank was with the infantry company HQ if the HQ tank would be far enough forward to direct the tank platoon and/or participate in the support mission.  Probably depends on the circumstances and it could be modified to fit the circumstances.  

Interesting stuff.     

Edited by MOS:96B2P
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said:

That's interesting.  I had the distance way to big.  I like the reasoning (Tank phone) of needing to be in the same action spot to receive a change of task.  

I guess if a tank was unbuttoned the TC could communicate with infantry a few action spots away but that may be making things to complicated. Checking if the TC is buttoned or unbuttoned etc.  It would be simpler to remember "Same Action Spot".

Wouldn't the same concept work if the infantry platoon HQ was next to the tank platoon HQ?  Or to take it a step further what if a runner (2 man scout team) was sent to the same spot as the platoon HQ tank (or any tank with a working radio so that tank could radio the other tanks with the info) and relay the change of task?

I was just wondering if the platoon HQ tank was with the infantry company HQ if the HQ tank would be far enough forward to direct the tank platoon and/or participate in the support mission.  Probably depends on the circumstances and it could be modified to fit the circumstances.  

Interesting stuff.     

How about this: any infantry HQ unit (in the Company that has the Tanks attached) can give a Tank Platoon, or even single tanks (if they already have Unit Tasks assigned and are acting independently) a New Task.

Don't think getting into runners, etc. is a good idea... maybe one complexity too far. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bil,

I agree with you and the others for coordination via the tank phones on the back of the tanks, meaning your liaison will have to be right next to the tank or behind it.  (Have seen Sgt. Saunders use tank phones lots in episodes of COMBAT, so it must be realistic...:lol:...kidding of course...you see the Marines doing this quite a lot to coordinate tanks for the Island hopping campaigns in the Pacific)

This will work great if the tanks stay close to the infantry and are used for close support.  But, the liaison won't be able to keep up with the tanks if they are to drive forward a ways to seek out new/additional targets.  Would you need to keep the tank that is being used to coordinate with the infantry out of the further maneuvering, having that one lag back while the other 4 tanks pushed ahead?  If they all pulled ahead of the liaison HQ, would they then have to roll for initiative task changes as individual tank commanders or would they be subject to the Platoon Tank Commander for additional tasks?  I don't mean to increase the complexity but that one HQ running behind an advancing tank will have a life expectancy of possibly 3 minutes.  Yeesh.

Anything that enhances this amazing game is all good by me.

Heinrich505

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

How about this: any infantry HQ unit (in the Company that has the Tanks attached) can give a Tank Platoon, or even single tanks (if they already have Unit Tasks assigned and are acting independently) a New Task.

Don't think getting into runners, etc. is a good idea... maybe one complexity too far. 

Yes, this sounds good. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I guess if a tank was unbuttoned the TC could communicate with infantry a few action spots away but that may be making things to complicated.

When I began playing this game some years ago, I thought that was how it worked. I always unbuttoned tanks when I wanted them to communicate with infantry. Actually I was a bit disappointed when I realised I had done all that micromanagement for nothing :)

Edited by Bulletpoint
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 7:38 AM, Bil Hardenberger said:

Please let us know in this thread how it goes if you do use it.

I have work in the morning, but I'll have time on Sunday to try this out.

I also concur on allowing tanks or tank platoons to directly communicate with the HQ they're attached to. If for no other reason than simplicity's sake. I often use armor as if it was assigned a "go where this Platoon goes, and do what they need you to do" type of role.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38th minute (counting down to zero):

1st Platoon -

1st Squads B Team successfully withdrew this turn after using Initiative in the last Orders Phase.  Still under their scouting order they continue to move toward the St. Martin Farm.  A and C Teams encountered more enemy contacts, which moved forward following the contact last turn.

Note that these movements are still within their original Unit Tasks.. C Team will keep an eye on the new contacts while A and B Teams move up to get eyes on St. Martin Farm.

00-38+-01.JPG

 

1st Platoon's other two squads, as they are both within C2 Range (red command links) will both be assigned New Tasks to move up and engage the enemy contacts.  Though I am identifying the New Tasks for these two squads this Orders phase, they will not be rolled for until the next Order Phase.

One note on command teams.. a Command Team is always free to move as it likes within it's unit's area of operation in order to maintain C2 links assign tasks etc.  

00-38+-03.jpg

 

Here is the new Battle Log for this turn.  Note the New Tasks (Unit Tasks) assigned to the two 1st Platoon Squads.  Also note that I have removed the New Task for the tank platoon.. I am going to use the rule we just discussed with them.  But I will wait until the Company HQ arrives on the scene in a few minutes to illustrate that. 

Also, note that this spreadsheet now contains the new DIE ROLL column that favors rolling higher numbers... small numbers are still possible, but much harder to attain.  Also I have added some conditional formatting, so now if you assign a New Task or Initiative it will shade orange, while the HQ or UNIT QUALITY column will shade red or green to indicate whether the unit passes its test or not... the templates I linked to previously also have this new programming.

00-38+-NEW+TASK.jpg 

 

2nd Platoon - I really wasn't thinking when I gave this formation its Tasks when it came in as reinforcements.. I would like to stop them and send them somewhere else, as I think 1st Platoon can handle this AO, but as they are not in C2 Range (no Company HQ on the map yet) they cannot change task so must carry on with their original orders.  

THIS is a perfect example of Command Friction by the way.

00-38+-02.jpg

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, SLIM said:

It turned out to be a bit long winded and buzzy, but here is my first attempt at using the Command Friction Rules:

I did use the Area Fire rule incorrectly, I'll fix that when I play more.
Other than that, everything seems simple and easy.

Pretty slick Slim... thanks for doing this.  Haven't watched the whole thing yet, but I do have a few comments:

  •  Command Task - the reason you only want to change this task in an emergency, is because EVERY formation will have to change their task to support the new Command Task.  Remember this is the formation's mission for the scenario you are playing, whether it be Attack, Probe, Defend etc... all of the sub-formation Tasks in support of that mission must support it in some way.. there is wide latitude for you as the commander to use whatever orders are required for your formations in order to complete the mission.
    • However, if you change the Command Task, say from Attack to a Defend task (i.e. your opponent's force is stronger than thought and you cannot complete your original mission)... you must change all sub formation tasks to support the new Command Task. 
    • Note: this happened to c3k in our Market-Garden BETA AAR, he changed his mission from attack to defend.. in his case there was no Command Friction and he could simply change all orders, easily and instantly. 
    • Using the Command Friction rules, changing focus like that can be hazardous, as all units might not be in C2 Range, those out of C2 range cannot even receive the new tasks, others might receive the task, but not be able to implement it for several turns (due to failing the die roll check), thus their neighbor units might withdraw leaving the formation out on a limb.
  • Engineer Task -  you have given your engineer squad an Engineer Task when it really might just be moving behind the formation it is attached to (should probably have been an Idle-Reserve or a Move Task instead).  Engineer Tasks should only be given when a unit needs to Mark Mines, Breach, etc., something Enginneery...
On 5/30/2017 at 11:57 PM, Bil Hardenberger said:
  • Area Fire/Recon by Fire:
    • Units MUST be within C2 range to use Recon by Fire (Odin’s Rule) – this is the only time a unit may fire at a target without any enemy contact present
    • Units can use an Initiative Task to Area Fire against an enemy contact by using either the Engage or the Move and Engage Tasks
  • Area Fire - I know you say in your post that you used Area Fire wrong (and you did) but I want to make sure everyone understands why... Area Fire can ONLY be used against an enemy contact, but you have to use Initiative to do it... however, in the opening minutes of your play through, you were on an Engage Task, but you shouldn't have used Area Fire direct targeting as you did... you should let them fire on their own (or direct targeted a firm enemy contact), and assign an Initiative Task to enable them to use Area Fire.

I'll add more as I watch your video, fun stuff. :)

I think what I am learning is that I have not been clear in the rules.. I will work on editing them so they make more sense.

EDIT:  Slim, I hope you don't take the following as criticism... I only want to clarify your play through with my intent for these rules:

I know you were trying to rush things along.. but all those New Tasks should have been rolled for in the next turn, just wanted that mentioned in case someone watching this gets confused.

at the 16:40 minute (or so) you give 1st Tank a new task. but you just change his task, without going through the New Task procedures... note: I see you realized your mistake at minute 21. ;)

It looks like you are using Unit tasks for every formation... you could just give the Platoon HQ a task, and as long as all of the sub units (squads in this case) are within C2 Range then they can maneuver with the HQ.. so at the 19th minute, if you had only given the HQ a task, leaving the squads blank, the entire platoon could have moved off with the HQ...

Edited by Bil Hardenberger
Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:
    • Using the Command Friction rules, changing focus like that can be hazardous, as all units might not be in C2 Range, those out of C2 range cannot even receive the new tasks, others might receive the task, but not be able to implement it for several turns (due to failing the die roll check), thus their neighbor units might withdraw leaving the formation out on a limb.

Sounds like fun.

 

49 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:
  • Engineer Task -  you have given your engineer squad an Engineer Task when it really might just be moving behind the formation it is attached to (should probably have been an Idle-Reserve or a Move Task instead).  Engineer Tasks should only be given when a unit needs to Mark Mines, Breach, etc., something Enginneery...

Okay. I think I got turned around by conflating status and task.

 

53 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:
  • Area Fire - I know you say in your post that you used Area Fire wrong (and you did) but I want to make sure everyone understands why... Area Fire can ONLY be used against an enemy contact, but you have to use Initiative to do it... however, in the opening minutes of your play through, you were on an Engage Task, but you shouldn't have used Area Fire direct targeting as you did... you should let them fire on their own (or direct targeted a firm enemy contact), and assign an Initiative Task to enable them to use Area Fire.

Yeah, I realized that later. I was just trying to go quickly, otherwise the video would have ran over an hour most likely...
My normal audience is not so attentive. ;)

 

55 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I think what I am learning is that I have not been clear in the rules.. I will work on editing them so they make more sense.

EDIT:  I know you were trying to rush things along.. but all those New Tasks should have been rolled for in the next turn, just wanted that mentioned in case someone watching this gets confused.

at the 16:40 minute (or so) you give 1st Tank a new task. but you just change his task, without going through the New Task procedures... note: I see you realized your mistake at minute 21. ;)

It looks like you are using Unit tasks for every formation... you could just give the Platoon HQ a task, and as long as all of the sub units (squads in this case) are within C2 Range then they can maneuver with the HQ.. so at the 19th minute, if you had only given the HQ a task, leaving the squads blank, the entire platoon could have moved off with the HQ...

I think some clarification, or at least a proper definition of each task. (i.e. Attack means movement forward, while Engage means stationary shooting.)
Also yes, I didn't want to break down the task assignment to every single separated team, but I wanted to see how it would look by dividing the task assignments down to the squad level. Then again, I'm a horribly boring nitpicker who does things the hard way, on purpose...

Thanks for commenting Bil, if anything, this ruleset gives me a new appreciation for the intricacies of the C2 system.
Now I can do things better the next time I get around to this. Once I've got this all figured out, I'd be happy to make a video tutorial or something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

Area Fire can ONLY be used against an enemy contact, but you have to use Initiative to do it... 

So you must always use initiative for area fire regardless if the unit is in C2 or out of C2?  I had the impression that a unit only had to use initiative to area fire if it was out of C2.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, SLIM said:

Okay. I think I got turned around by conflating status and task.

Yeah, I realized that later. I was just trying to go quickly, otherwise the video would have ran over an hour most likely...
My normal audience is not so attentive. ;)

I think some clarification, or at least a proper definition of each task. (i.e. Attack means movement forward, while Engage means stationary shooting.)
Also yes, I didn't want to break down the task assignment to every single separated team, but I wanted to see how it would look by dividing the task assignments down to the squad level. Then again, I'm a horribly boring nitpicker who does things the hard way, on purpose...

Thanks for commenting Bil, if anything, this ruleset gives me a new appreciation for the intricacies of the C2 system.
Now I can do things better the next time I get around to this. Once I've got this all figured out, I'd be happy to make a video tutorial or something.

Okay I will put together some clarification for what the different tasks are supposed to mean... sorry for the fuzziness of the rules, and my not-so-clear descriptions.. it's still in Alpha. ;)

 

11 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

So you must always use initiative for area fire regardless if the unit is in C2 or out of C2?  I had the impression that a unit only had to use initiative to area fire if it was out of C2.  

Yeah, that was the intent anyway.  My reasoning is that area fire is outside of the normal task constraints, and requires an on the spot leadership decision. 

I will work on the rules and post a new set in the next day or two to help clarify some of the misunderstandings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...