Jump to content
LongLeftFlank

MOUT and urban counterinsurgency (and CM)

Recommended Posts

Interesting article esp shifting loylaties / pragmatic identity changes  - reminded me of a young lad in Colchester UK (a garrison town for Para Regiment) who lived in a hostel opposite the army cricket ground where my team play (not enough army folk around to play so my civvy pub club were invited to use it as our home ground at tax payers expense).  He called himself 'Nasser Hussain' !?! and claimed to be Pakistani. After a few games where 'Nasser' played fearlessly even with his left arm in a plaster cast which didn't impede his fast bowling! - he confided to us he was really an Afghani here I suspect dubiously.  Then he just disappeared which was a shame as I really wanted to know more of his story.

Edited by Wicky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Erwin said:

Very informative article.  Basically we're fighting a death cult.  And how does one do that?

As with the Imperial Japanese Army, oblige them without joining them.

When they're hiding among civilian populations, the best approach to date has been effective local allies with a better sense for local bad guys. 

Technology may also help some; cheap drones can already 'sniff' explosives. In the (indeterminate) future they may also be able to bioscan for visual or metabolic cues that warn 'this dude is either very ill, stoned or living his last moments on earth.' 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This may be apocryphal (since my info comes from SEALS), but ever since Vietnam, one sure tell for a journalist with no actual clue or access is that they use the term 'Green Berets' in their reporting, as opposed to operators.

You could certainly do a CM scenario, but it's basically "an endless series of running battles" (i.e. hit and run ambushes) across a quite large battlespace. Command skill would be almost irrelevant;  victory would be random, based on (un)lucky hits by rockets, mines, plus the retaliatory airstrikes.

And after 15 years that's exactly the way the bad guys like it.

Edited by LongLeftFlank

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Using MOS's concepts pioneered in TOC, it could work.  In TOC, one acquires intel from different sources and in different ways and this gives the player (hard) choices as to what priority actions to take next and which are less urgent - ie: have to triage.  (have to deal with lots of "hit & run" events.)  These decisions/choices in turn can lead to different outcomes etc.  It's perfect for COIN and while TOC is not a MOUT game, it could be.

In related news of Sgt Chapman getting MOH for actions during Op Anaconda in Afghanistan - highly recommend reading "Not a Good Day To Die" by Sean Naylor about the fiasco of that operation.  Chapman's story is a significant and memorable part of the book.

The many diverse moving parts of Anaconda would make an xnt fictionalized scenario or campaign as they involved battling Taliban and Al Qaeda on the Pakistan border with Afghan Army as well as many different spec ops forces including SEALs, Delta, 10th Mountain plus CIA units.  The 101 airborne were also considered but kept home for other emergencies. But, in a scenario or campaign they would be appropriate.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Love the comments section:

Murad Badshah says:

Thats great. Taliban’s improvement is amazing. The way they they fight and carry out their operations is praiseworthy. Without any formal training Taliban are beating US trained Afghan army so easily. Thats the result of 17 years of military experience.  Thank you America.

:(

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎8‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 4:45 PM, Erwin said:

Using MOS's concepts pioneered in TOC, it could work.  In TOC, one acquires intel from different sources and in different ways and this gives the player (hard) choices as to what priority actions to take next and which are less urgent - ie: have to triage.  (have to deal with lots of "hit & run" events.)  These decisions/choices in turn can lead to different outcomes etc.

But this approach means your Battle of Ghazni scenario bears zero resemblance to the actual events.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

But this approach means your Battle of Ghazni scenario bears zero resemblance to the actual events.

Pretty much. There are many battles you just can’t truly simulate. Most historical battles. Even if you have some FOW tactically, you still know certain facts from the get go, your total possible battlespace, all the terrain, your units are never confused about their orders or actions of nearby units, the chance of friendly fire is much much rarer etc  The best you can hope for is to generate some of the feel of them. 

I’d love to do something similar to the Anaconda battle in Afghanistan but all the confusion in command and locations of units etc just is not gonna happen in CM.  Mogadishu might be slightly possible, but you won’t have convoys making wrong turns or not knowing exactly where the crash sites are. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sburke said:

Mogadishu might be slightly possible, but you won’t have convoys making wrong turns or not knowing exactly where the crash sites are. 

What I noticed in TOC is that one didn't see the roadblocks until on had eyes on the location.  So, one could simulate a Mogadishu situation since... until one arrived at a particular road one would not see it was impassable.  Then one would have to backtrack and seek a new route - similar to what happened in RL.

Also, there is much fun in playing a scenario that is based on a RL event, but doesn't have to slavishly try to recreate it.  I see Op Anaconda and Black Hawk Down more as inspirations for "stories" that could be better than the RL events.  Rather like how some books are completely changed when turned into a movie and thus improved. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sburke said:

Mogadishu might be slightly possible, but you won’t have convoys making wrong turns or not knowing exactly where the crash sites are. 

You could use OpFor barbwire to block certain routes to friendly wheeled vehicles.  (Provide or not provide demo charges would be a design decision.  Or provide demo charges back in the setup area 20 minutes or so into the mission)  The player might think he knew the route he was going to take until he came across the FOW barbwire roadblocks and had to detour (or dismount and go on foot?).  The player could have an idea of two or three possible crash sites from the briefing.  Maybe have the possible crash sites marked on the map?  A big crater at each with burning civilian trucks and taxis marking the locations with pillars of smoke?  So as not to waste time the player must decide on at least one location and starts out for it (encountering roadblocks and having to make decisions about detours etc along the way).  Then maybe 10 or 15 minutes into the mission (whatever works best) the friendlies from a down Blackhawk appear as reinforcements at one of the three possible locations mentioned in the briefing which then triggers an OpFor unit to................  Something along these lines might get detours, wrong turns and not knowing exactly where you should be going............. :D :lol:

Edited by MOS:96B2P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ha.  Beat you to it!!  :)

But, yes you make xnt points and your TOC system should be an inspiration for a whole new generation of scenario concepts

Edited by Erwin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could do that, but am looking for replay value.  The downed helos I am thinking to use a variable reinforcement and hopefully with the timers not be sure which site has a unit on first.  Still playing with that idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, sburke said:

I am thinking to use a variable reinforcement 

I admit, I'm not sure what this means or how to do it but it sounds interesting.  Looking forward to see what you come up with.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I admit, I'm not sure what this means or how to do it but it sounds interesting.  Looking forward to see what you come up with.    

Simply put - I put units in 2 reinforcement groups. Each is in the same time frame but with a long window for entrance so you won’t know which will appear first. Each is a trigger for the enemy so no matter how many times you play you won’t know which direction you need to head to 1st and how quickly you’ll neeed to respond to the other.  You could split your force and hit both but then that carries it’s own risk.  Unfortunately I can’t make the locations themselves variable. That was what I was really hoping for.   I may try that for the wire obstacle as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 8/28/2018 at 5:40 AM, Erwin said:

Love the comments section:

Murad Badshah says:

Thats great. Taliban’s improvement is amazing. The way they they fight and carry out their operations is praiseworthy. Without any formal training Taliban are beating US trained Afghan army so easily. Thats the result of 17 years of military experience.  Thank you America.

:(

1. In the operations of war, where there are in the field a thousand swift chariots, as many heavy chariots, and a hundred thousand mail-clad soldiers, with provisions enough to carry them a thousand li, the expenditure at home and at the front, including entertainment of guests, small items such as glue and paint, and sums spent on chariots and armor, will reach the total of a thousand ounces of silver per day. Such is the cost of raising an army of 100,000 men.
2. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men’s weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.
3. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain.
4. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.
5. Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays.
6. There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sburke said:

Each is in the same time frame but with a long window for entrance so you won’t know which will appear first. Each is a trigger for the enemy 

1 hour ago, sburke said:

 

I may try that for the wire obstacle as well. 

Well, I screwed up the quotes.  But anyways the long window for reinforcements that, when they appear, appear on a trigger is clever.  

An interesting thing for barbwire was that in CMBS breach kits carried by grunts will not Blast it.  Only demo charges carried by engineers.  And of course wheels can't crush barbwire, only tracks. 

I don't think fortifications (barbwire) can arrive as reinforcements.  I attempted this with minefields and it did not work. 

Barbwire can be randomly placed (in a roadblock location) with AI setup zones.  But I think the size of the barbwire roadblocks need to be consistent.  Example:  All roadblocks are three sections of barbwire and all AI setup zones for the Barbwire AI groups are three action spots long.  The direction of the AI setup zone does not matter (north to south or east to west).  Not sure if diagonal could be made to work.  Then with multiple AI plans for the barbwire AI group the location of the roadblocks will be different depending on which AI plan loads.      

Very cool.  This could also work for "The long road home".  Well,...............as long as no tracked vehicles were involved.  At least until near the end.         

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 12:55 AM, sburke said:

Mogadishu might be slightly possible, but you won’t have convoys making wrong turns or not knowing exactly where the crash sites are.

Chunk the map per the @Combatintman method, use intel per @MOS:96B2P system & multiple exit zones.....Job's a good 'un.  ;)

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×