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Erwin

"Interesting" Scenarios & Campaigns

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Thought it would be useful/helpful to discuss what is considered to be the components of "good" scenarios.  Am not requesting anything or aiming this at anyone.  So, plz no one go off on me... 

Re full disclosure:  It is no secret that my "prejudice" is for entertaining situations and that reality can and should be adjusted in favor of maximizing entertainment value.

Other motivators:

1) How to make more use of the superb urban maps that you guys have created. 

2) Intrigued by the possibilities of using several dozen "spies" in CMSF as unarmed civilian "hostages".

3) Use as much of the features that CMSF provides in the way of nationalities and their varied equipment and unique SOP's of fighting.

4) Also feature rarely if ever seen vehicles.  Eg for Blue: The Nyala, Fuchs Wolf, Fennek, Weisel, Dutch G-Wagen & Canadian GWagon, Coyote, YPR-765 GN, LAV-C2, MTVR, M1078, Spartan, Sultan, Bulldog etc.

Eg for the Red forces:  PU with ZU-23-2, Zil-131, BRD, UAZ... (Can "Syrian" forces also use captured NATO equipment as a Red force??)

The following situation is what I woke up with at 3am while dreaming of topical news...

First imagine a map standing on a corner rather than an edge - like a wildlife crossing sign.  I think this makes the best use of a map.  Let's say that the top corner is "North" for ease of explanation.

For sake of simplicity let's say that the RHS ("East") corner would be where a few dozen civilians (Christians, Sunnis etc.) are hiding out - trapped.  The important point is that this location should not be defensible.  They are surrounded by poorly trained and equipped Red teams.  The civvies have a couple of equally poorly trained and equipped squads of volunteer militia which are just enuff to deter the Red teams - but not enuff to allow them to escape.  So, the civilians are relatively safe if they stay put and wait for rescue, but they can't just walk out. 

The opposite corner ("West corner") would be where a large force of motivated/fanatic Red Uncon/ISIS types come pouring in (over several turns) - their objective is to get to the civilians for BBQ or somesuch.

In the Red Force way is a small force of Iraqi Army or militia, bolstered by a few Elite SAS or SEALS (a couple sniper teams and FO's perhaps) who are on a training exercise.  (Probably no vehicles or heavy weapons.  However, perhaps access to Choppers and/or fixed wing support - but no bombs allowed due to the high civilian density of the city - only guns and maybe rockets.)  This force is not strong enough to stand and fight.  It's objective is to delay the tidal wave of Red uncon/ISIS. 

The delay is vital, to allow time for rescue missions from the South and North corners to get to the civilians b4 the Red Uncon/ISIS chaps get to them and escort them "off the map" to safe havens.  In this case the safe havens would consist of a "safe/fortified" UN location on the SW or NW map edges. 

To maximize forces available in CMSF, the South/UN/NATO rescue mission could be Germans, Dutch and Canadians in light vehicles.  Possibly Brits as well.  The above list of vehicles can be used as buses on which the hostages can embark and be transported away to the safe UN zone. 

The North force could be US forces (with Brits if they are not already with the South UN/NATO group). 

One of these two rescue forces will have to join up with the SAS/SEALS and help hold back and then destroy the ISIS/Uncons - or maybe simply to hold open a safe corridor for the escaping civvies.  The other will rescue the trapped civilians.  Both Blue forces will have to fight through Red/Isis forces whose objective is to delay the rescue missions so that the large Red force from the West can get to the civilians. 

Am thinking that due to neutral civilian density in the city, heavy (150mm+) artillery cannot be used (and light arty seems to not be useful).  My sense is that air support may be available, but only with light weapons - no 1,000lb bombs that can destroy an apartment block etc.

********

Well, that was what woke me up very early.  Comments...?

 

 

 

 

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Dude, just jump into the editor and design it.....There's a great crew in this part of the forum who will help you every inch of the way, seriously.  If you want to test your theory on a small map I can send you a blank version of my (LLF's really) 320m x 320m super-dense urban Mosul map in all of about five minutes.  B)

One minor issue with your plan, taking units off-map is not possible in CM:SF, but you can do it in CM:A.....Keeping the units alive until the end of the scenario (Assigning an enemy Destroy Unit Objective) is about as close as you can get (it's what I've done with the refugees in my recent CM:SF scenario).

PS - You just kinda described many of the elements of 'Ashsh Al Dababir'.....I've pinged you a PM. 

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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There's a lot there which makes it ambitious. The biggest holes in this are:

If you are setting this in the context of a real conflict then you have to use units that are there rather than cool stuff your want to see on the map. It is utterly pointless trying to do a contemporary Iraq scenario with a Dutch/German rescue force and retain any credibility.

Likewise with the SAS/SEAL narrative of being on exercise ... in a populated town, in a warzone, with live ammunition ... really? In this instance you just go with the reality which involves some rummaging around on the interweb to find out what they're doing. Your problem with the SAS is that there is no CMSF troop type that resembles them so a bit of modding is required.

Oh and you do know that ISIS regards Shias as apostates not Sunnis don't you?

In terms of the scheme of manoeuvre, there are some interesting concepts there but you are thinking in prescriptive terms with what you want the various elements to do. In reality (and recent posted AARs of my missions have demonstrated), the player will do whatever they want to do once they hit that 'start' button. As an example, apart from the lightly armed Red Force surrounding the civilians, what stops the player from moving his SAS/SEAL delay force to the Eastern corner of the map right from the start?

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1 hour ago, Erwin said:

<Snip> Intrigued by the possibilities of using several dozen "spies" in CMSF as unarmed civilian "hostages".  <Snip>

Comments...?  

I was very pleased to learn spies could be used to represent civilians.  I used them as civilian staff in the scenario Consulate Evacuation.  I think it makes for an interesting scenario when you have actual non-combatants on the map that you are responsible for.  I'm really looking forward to CMSF 2 where there will be exit zones, supply dumps and AI triggers.  Just think of all the cool COIN scenarios you could create with that.         

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31 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

There's a lot there which makes it ambitious. The biggest holes in this are:

If you are setting this in the context of a real conflict then you have to use units that are there rather than cool stuff your want to see on the map. It is utterly pointless trying to do a contemporary Iraq scenario with a Dutch/German rescue force and retain any credibility.

I tried to make it as clear as I could that I have never been that interested in simulating "accurate reality" - just the entertainment potential.  Looking for an interesting situation that exploits the capabilities of the CMSF features and units.  So many vehicles have never been utilized.  Far less worried about "credibility".  I do understand this isn't your cup of tea. 

Likewise with the SAS/SEAL narrative of being on exercise ... in a populated town, in a warzone, with live ammunition ... really? In this instance you just go with the reality which involves some rummaging around on the interweb to find out what they're doing. Your problem with the SAS is that there is no CMSF troop type that resembles them so a bit of modding is required.

Don't care about the mods, just enjoy Elite Snipers and maybe an elite FO or two (or drivers like SS did in his CMA scenario).

Oh and you do know that ISIS regards Shias as apostates not Sunnis don't you?  My bad...  Hey it was 3am...

In terms of the scheme of manoeuvre, there are some interesting concepts there but you are thinking in prescriptive terms with what you want the various elements to do. In reality (and recent posted AARs of my missions have demonstrated), the player will do whatever they want to do once they hit that 'start' button. As an example, apart from the lightly armed Red Force surrounding the civilians, what stops the player from moving his SAS/SEAL delay force to the Eastern corner of the map right from the start?

I know this can be an issue.  Why the SAS/SEALS can't run to the civvies right at the start:  1) The scattered poor quality Red teams dotted around the city (between them and the civvies) in ambush positions.  2) If the SAS/SEALS run and do not delay the Red forces pouring in from the west, the civvies will be overrun b4 the rescue columns arrive. 

Yes, the SAS/SEALS can attempt to move east, but it will be slow.  That is the point.  The intention is for the SAS/SEALS to a) Force ISIS to deploy and slow em down, and b) call in air attack on the ISIS so as to degrade them.

 

Oh, and SS, as I have often said... Attempting to learn how to do the amazing work that you and other so do would be like pulling my own teeth out.  Am trying to reduce stress, not get a heart attack.  Be proud of your capabilities.  Not everyone wants to or has the talent to do this.

Oh.. and yes, I know there are no exits in CMSF.  I was thinking of simulating the entrance to a heavily defended UN base with static defender units (immobilized AFV's?) that the Red forces cannot take, and hence would provide a safe haven for the civvies after they are bussed out. 

ie:  The buses drive through the UN fort gate and turn to get behind high walls or buildings out of sight and any danger.  The gate is heavily guarded by immobilized AFV's and even infantry which can fire out of doorless buildings through windows, (but which they cannot exit from), so are also static defenders.

These days it doesn't seem to matter what CM title one is playing, all the scenarios start to feel the same.   Am attempting to come up with intriguing ideas that I cannot recall seeing in any CM game EVER in the hope reviving flagging interest and in finding novel types of scenarios. 

Edited by Erwin

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22 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I was very pleased to learn spies could be used to represent civilians.  I used them as civilian staff in the scenario Consulate Evacuation.  I think it makes for an interesting scenario when you have actual non-combatants on the map that you are responsible for.  I'm really looking forward to CMSF 2 where there will be exit zones, supply dumps and AI triggers.  Just think of all the cool COIN scenarios you could create with that.         

Amen!  B)

IEDs in the supply dump.....Oh I think so!  :ph34r:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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Sorry mate, while we *greatly* appreciate your prompt playtesting, we aren't going to do fictional scenarios to order. Like Steven Biko,  we write what we like. Spend a little time in the editor and you should be able to work up a very satisfying qb.

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I just knew that no one would bother to actually read my whole post - just the usual knee jerk reaction.  One would have hoped for better...  Sad, really...

As I said first sentence right at the start:

"Thought it would be useful/helpful to discuss what is considered to be the components of "good" scenarios.  Am not requesting anything or aiming this at anyone.  So, plz no one go off on me... "

Also, behind the times as usual: "Oh and you do know that ISIS regards Shias as apostates not Sunnis don't you?  My bad...  Hey it was 3am..."

Why do some people never read the posts but just enjoy pissing on others.  Says a lot about their characters imo.

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maybe too much men time here.. need some female characters here. hey, did I read well on some posts - someone might mod female faces to pixeltruppen ? :D

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16 hours ago, borg said:

maybe too much men time here.. need some female characters here. hey, did I read well on some posts - someone might mod female faces to pixeltruppen ? :D

Are those in the book ... Focus, focus, focus - we are still waiting for your vision.

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8 hours ago, Combatintman said:

Are those in the book ... Focus, focus, focus - we are still waiting for your vision.

I can see that you're watching my six 

:) Soon with you all guys.

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No, seriously.....I'm building it, have been for a while!  :D

I'm 100% confident that Combatintman will not approve of the briefing style for this one.....But hopefully it might make him grin!  ;)

More soonish.  :ph34r:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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That game is very tempting, but the 'Golden Knight' is clearly a total wuss.....Had those chickens dosed their beaks with Curare or something?  :o

Ah.....Know I know why those chickens were so hard:

They were obviously trained by their ally.....Chuck Norris!  :lol:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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I understand chickens perhaps not having the sense to retreat, but the Romans might have suffered morale loss.  Also, what's with the unlimited ammo for the US WW2 troops vs 20,000 zombies?  Where is the conservation of ammo?

Penguin vs Medieval horde...

Lots of fun...  But, the point...?

Edited by Erwin

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Yes, the CMA Goat module has been overdue for some time. 

Otoh, these "just for a lark" programs also make it blindingly obvious that the underlying CM platform is sadly dated. 

And even to an 18 year CM loyalist like me, the universal wave-away of "sure, but just look at the crap zombie horde AIs, total pants damage modeling and static terrain" is starting to smell like a bit of a red herring. A 10 year old red herring, to be exact.

IMHO the time is coming for BFC either to seek greener platforms, or else live off a dwindling player base buying incremental tweaks to their current offers. Risking the possibility that someone at one of the big houses finally does a passable formation command logic, and one day the old church empties out.... 

 

Edited by LongLeftFlank
Goats

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22 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

:lol:

Actually the more videos I watch the less the game appeals, the idea is great but the implementation is awful.  :unsure:

What, you mean the TacAI of the penguin army leaves something to be desired? 

 

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