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Combat Mission: Europe 1985


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I wholeheartedly agree. This era seems to be a pretty barren landscape for games. Off the top of my head:

Wargame EE/ALB/RD

Twilight Struggle (stretching the definition of a wargame)

Some scenarios in TOAW III

Graviteam Tactics, Operation Hooper and Shield of the Prophet

 

There's not much out there in terms of wargaming, and of those I think Wargame and Graviteam Tactics are the only ones that can scratch the Combat Mission itch in the slightest.

 

Side note: I'm reading Zaloga's Red Thrust, and I'll be damned if it's not a good read with some very interesting points. I'd love to reenact his battles in a CM game...

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I used to enjoy John Tiller's Fulda Gap 85, and currently playing Flashpoint Campaign Red Storm. Both are excellent cold war strategic games. And now I'm waiting for Flashpoint Campaign: Southern Front, with enhanced game engine and more factions.

It would be really great if the CM-Cold War came out, showing excellent depiction and realism of tactical level battles of cold war units. Personally I wish to see 88~89 era, to see the battle between T-80BV and M1A1(HA), and preferably Northern German Plain, which was expected to be the main thrust route of red army. 

Most of NATO vehicles and AT assets were equipped with thermal sight, though 1st generation thermal visions were not that great like modern ones. But it was still far better than nothing or light-amplification method. 

CM already has Afghanistan, and modern lines such as SF and BS. So I think it would not be critically or impossibly difficult to develop the CM-Cold War if they want to make one. But considering BF's usual cycle, it would be hard to see one in near future (under the assumption that they have a plan), and we even don't know about the future plan of BF. 

Edited by exsonic01
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This is my dream CM game, but it is unfortunately unlikely to be made in the next 5 years or so. 

BFCs current model is to release one major game per year and two modules for already released games per year. There are at least two games covering the Eastern Front that are expected, which means that the earliest possible window for a CM: Fulda Gap isn't until 2019. Its very likely that other games covering WWII or possibly Korea 1950 come about first, not to mention another modern game such as Black Sea in a different environment. 

So while CM: Fulda Gap may eventually happen (and I sincerely hope it does) I've accepted the fact that it is a long time coming. 

Now if someone had a boatload of money to throw at BFC to develop a cold war game, that could change the equation some. But that is exceedingly unlikely, so we'll have to wait it out. 

P.S. Airburst ammunition for artillery and thermals for tanks and IFVs would be in a cold war game, unless that game takes place in the 50's or 60's. 

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10 hours ago, HerrTom said:

I wholeheartedly agree. This era seems to be a pretty barren landscape for games. Off the top of my head:

Wargame EE/ALB/RD

Twilight Struggle (stretching the definition of a wargame)

Some scenarios in TOAW III

Graviteam Tactics, Operation Hooper and Shield of the Prophet

 

There's not much out there in terms of wargaming, and of those I think Wargame and Graviteam Tactics are the only ones that can scratch the Combat Mission itch in the slightest.

 

Side note: I'm reading Zaloga's Red Thrust, and I'll be damned if it's not a good read with some very interesting points. I'd love to reenact his battles in a CM game...

Certainly in 3D at this level. There is Flashpoint Campaigns but his interface is essentially a board game, not a 3D tactical game like CM. It would certainly be a game I would buy but I think people are likely to prefer modern games set in the present day/near future. As posted on a different thread I would prefer a game set in the Pacific Rim and Indian Sub Continent area 

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1 hour ago, Marwek77 aka Red Reporter said:

Simply NO, with speed they are producing something this will be just another part of the LEGO system. I want more modules for existing games, not another unfinished tittle...

BFCs current model is to release two modules per year. If they stick to it, at that rate all games will have at least one new module by 2020. I would say thats pretty impressive. 

 

1 hour ago, MikeyD said:

To me '85 is 'late cold war'. Fulda Gap 1971 would be more of a challenge. Before the 'lessons learned' of the Yom Kippur war, before the west realized the T-64 was a game-changer. TOW was only 1 year in service in 1971.

The problem with a cold war scenario in 1971 is that prior to the lessons learned in the Yom Kippur war, US doctrine was to use nukes in response to a conventional invasion of Western Europe by the Soviets. So a CM game taking place in that time period would be really boring. The '85-'89 timeframe is much more interesting as far as conventional conflict due to both doctrine and equipment. 

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Bufo,

Totally support this--provided it accurately reflects how things really were on the armor-anti-armor front and other key areas then. Have written extensively on this matter. Talking pages and pages devoted to what I learned directly from the CIA's own experts about the dire imbalance the US faced in killing Russian tanks and its vulnerability to Russian tanks and other weaponry.  Have provided a few examples.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/123637-cm-games-id-like-to-see/?page=8#comment-1704493

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/120835-motiv-armor-piercing-submunition/#comment-1632182

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/116900-those-who-you-wanting-cmfg-need-to-read-this/#comment-1559849

Regards,

John Kettler

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10 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Bufo,

Totally support this--provided it accurately reflects how things really were on the armor-anti-armor front and other key areas then. Have written extensively on this matter. Talking pages and pages devoted to what I learned directly from the CIA's own experts about the dire imbalance the US faced in killing Russian tanks and its vulnerability to Russian tanks and other weaponry.  Have provided a few examples.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/123637-cm-games-id-like-to-see/?page=8#comment-1704493

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/120835-motiv-armor-piercing-submunition/#comment-1632182

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/116900-those-who-you-wanting-cmfg-need-to-read-this/#comment-1559849

Regards,

John Kettler

Wow, so many great and interesting articles. You already suggested this idea. I didn't know that. Anyway, I also really wish to see CM FG or CM NGP (Northern German Plain) but it will take quite a time IMO.... May I ask what is the Granit SFW? All I know about name "Granit" in weaponry is cruise missile.... 

Edited by exsonic01
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exsonic01,

Blast! I got my rocks confused and wrote down the wrong one. My apologies! The smart submunition which I had in mind is Bazalt (Basalt), not Granit. Granit is the antiship cruise missile known by the highly appropriate NATO designator as SS-N-19/SHIPWRECK. The Bazalt armed version of the 9M55 series rocket starts at 2:05 on the manufacturer, Splav;s, video. When we heard at the Soviet Threat Technology Conference the Russians already had SFW, it's a wonder the attendees didn't need new underwear. Even worse was that the BM-30 could deploy it's own drone over the target area to hunt for the high leverage mobile systems (CPs, missile and SPG nuclear delivery means, MLRS, etc. before delivering a shattering strike.  

By contrast, here's the info on the Textron BLU-108 smart submunition, which would've been the tank killing payload for the never built deep strike system ASSAULT BREAKER. BLU-108 is a more sophisticated submunition than Bazalt MOTIV-3F because it not only has passive IR but is also equipped with an laser profiler to improve targeting and aimpoint selection. Thought it was a howler that the manufacturer's own online product brochure misspelled "ordnance" and instead had "ordinance." Best keep that yapping dog quiet!

http://www.textronsystems.com/sites/default/files/resource-files/TS_WSS_BLU_108_.pdf

Glad you found the material I provided earlier useful.

Regards,

John Kettler

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+1

i think CM Able Archer 83 with date settings c

for 85 and 87 would be a good start. then modules for WP other NATO mayve Sweden and also to expand to 89 and down to 75 to 80 range.

i think a fantastic concurrent buddy project would be CM 1945 WW3.

Allies. some straggler Wehrmacht units vs Red Army.  no patton drives east. more like an essay i believe Glantz though i could be wrong in a book of what if scenarios about ww2. instead of a drive planned by one side confused fighting between sides as east meet west escalates then is squashed. tensions remain high and explode in early may with open combat breaking out.

the wehrmacht troops would be 2nd line emwrgency troops of course.

the mayve a module for berlin airlift goes hot and youre tasked toneither stop the imperialist advance on berlin or tasked to open a land route to berlin in 47

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you also could have german equipped. ut not many wehrmacht units. then latwr in campaign you could by wehrmacht (POW) units that volunteerwd from america or england to fight equipped in western equipment. just perhaps higher motivation and fitness than the still at home wehrmacht. i dont see a soviet equivalent with Germans though. def lublin govt poles etc

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I think that a CM game about 1982-85-89 conflict would be very interesting. We know much more about 1980's era weaponary than about today's stuff - lot's of unclassfield or well-estimated data - so from technical point of view  a game about that era would be much more realistic than something about current or 2020+ conflict. It's much easier to realistically simulate weapons if we know how exactly they worked and what were their parameters and limitations. Especially in last 10 years lots of beliefs about cold-war armor  turned out to be myths. Would be interesting to simulate this conflict with use of current state of knowledge. Some tactics would have to change, outcomes could change too... And the way of fighting in 80-s would be something in between classic WW2 tactics and today's electronic battlefield where what can be seen, can be killed. I miss a good CM-like game about this era.... 

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4 hours ago, Amizaur said:

I think that a CM game about 1982-85-89 conflict would be very interesting. We know much more about 1980's era weaponary than about today's stuff - lot's of unclassfield or well-estimated data - so from technical point of view  a game about that era would be much more realistic than something about current or 2020+ conflict. It's much easier to realistically simulate weapons if we know how exactly they worked and what were their parameters and limitations. Especially in last 10 years lots of beliefs about cold-war armor  turned out to be myths. Would be interesting to simulate this conflict with use of current state of knowledge. Some tactics would have to change, outcomes could change too... And the way of fighting in 80-s would be something in between classic WW2 tactics and today's electronic battlefield where what can be seen, can be killed. I miss a good CM-like game about this era.... 

I think th early to mid 2020s are as far as any CM game can go at the moment. I would certainly purchase both a mid 1980s and a 21st Century game subject of course to the technical specs of the game :-) On the 21st Century side of hings what interests me is how new weapons might cause future warfare to evolve in the next decade. 

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15 hours ago, LUCASWILLEN05 said:

I think th early to mid 2020s are as far as any CM game can go at the moment. I would certainly purchase both a mid 1980s and a 21st Century game subject of course to the technical specs of the game :-) On the 21st Century side of hings what interests me is how new weapons might cause future warfare to evolve in the next decade. 

I never liked future warfare since you don't even know the data of current weapons. In an arcade strategy is ok, but c'mon, this is supposed to be a "simulator". We might as well have walking transformer robots and see how they might shape the battlefield.

Edited by Bufo
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Steel Beasts covers late 1970s into the mid-1990s.  There are some modern units but its core is that earlier cold war-ish period.  Though its built as a tank simulator/training tool, it can be played as a wargame.  I play with a couple people now and then where we never go into the tanks, but play from the map and outside view of the units.  There is an extended 3D view that lets you view units/maps like in CM-like perspective.  We have played from smaller platoon vs platoon infantry heavy scenarios to large battalion-level and tank-heavy games.

It have some advantage and disadvantages over CM.  It is real-time and pause is pause.  No orders can be issued in pause.  But it has an incredible set of tools to plan out you units' activities in detail.  It also has a great, what CM players would call, Tac AI.  You just give general orders and postures and the AI is good at finding its own positions and engaging.  When playing in wargame mode, 90% of your effort is detailed planning of your units' actions.  Then when you just make adjustments along the way.  It has a video replay of the entire game available that is in 4 sec increments.  It a has very detailed and realistic artillery and engineering capabilities.  Its infantry performance isn't as detailed as CM in some ways, but more detailed in other ways.

When I need to have Chieftains or Leopards against T-72As or T-80Bs, I play SB.  I now probably spend twice as much time on SB as CM.

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12 minutes ago, Bufo said:

I never liked future warfare since you don't even know the data of current weapons. In an arcade strategy is ok, but c'mon, this is supposed to be a "simulator". We might as well have walking transformer robots and see how they might shape the battlefield.

I would not expect battlefield robots to be widespread until the middle of he century though that technology is starting to come into service now

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_robot

For a war in the early 2020s however we would be seeing today's technology bcoming more common. Javelin type ATGM Top Attack missiles are becoming more commonplace for example China's HT-12, the Israeli Spike, Japan's Type 01 LMAT, India's NAG

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spike_(missile)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_01_LMAT

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_(missile)#Man_portable

True, we don't have accurate data - and the same is true for CMBS. That is why I would not want a scenario any later than the early 2020s, say about five years from now. It would also be hard to develop a possible back story later than the early 2020s.

That said there is nothing wrong at all with a mid 1980s game. Personally I find a near future scenario more interesting

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31 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

Combat Mission: Fulda Gap 85' would indeed be a dream comming true. I hope it will happen at some point.

It would be nice at some point - as it would be nice to have a near future Pacific Rim game. However we all know CMBS needs to be progressed first - as do the various WW2 scenarios

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