On-map spawning of enemy units

[Pericles]

So I'm playing the CMBS battle called "Interdiction". Great map, fun times, difficult enemy placement, etc.

But I make it through about 41 turns and something strange happens. Out of nowhere, I spot enemy units back near the starting point of the mission. Some ride in off the map along roads (tricky but acceptable), but others are spotted in buildings near the center of the map (near the back where I started). I have good map coverage with my units so I should have seen them sneak in and take up positions in buildings.

Any thoughts on this from long-time CM players? I am quite confident that this battle ("Interdiction") was developed to include a random enemy spawning event at around 1:19:00 (41 turns into the battle). If this is the case, it saps all the life and realism out of the mission. Not a fan.

[Erwin]

Have no idea about this particular scenario.  However, it's a useful device to simulate uncon infiltration.  Some CMSF and CMA missions are like that - you have to have 360 degree awareness all the time.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

No idea what the reasoning behind it is, but Pericles' surmise is correct, the units are quite close to the map edge in most instances and it would only require one or two more AI orders to have them move into position from a more plausible starting point.

In my own CM:SF & CM:A scenarios when I spawn AI units deep on the map, there is always a reason for them being there and visual clues as to how they got there.  Whether the player picks up on these is not really my problem. 

[MikeyD]

I just checked the scenario in the editor and...

(Big Spoiler Alert)

 

 

 

 

 

Reinforcements are scheduled to arrive at the 40 minute mark in those locations. I recall playing that scenario ages ago and being vexed by the enemy showing up on my flanks.

[Pericles]

Very interesting. One is forced to pretend that the enemy units that spawned in those buildings were hiding in the attics or basements or something.

It would have been better if the units spawned on the map edges, simulating the movement of flanking units from off-map positions to on-map positions.

Anyway, I took care of them and the mission is overall enjoyable despite the random and (in my opinion) unrealistic spawning event.

[Stefano Z]

48 minutes ago, Pericles said:

Very interesting. One is forced to pretend that the enemy units that spawned in those buildings were hiding in the attics or basements or something.

It would have been better if the units spawned on the map edges, simulating the movement of flanking units from off-map positions to on-map positions.

Anyway, I took care of them and the mission is overall enjoyable despite the random and (in my opinion) unrealistic spawning event.

I played the scenario recently and my mortars and a BMP2 crew were hiding in the patch of woods in the map corner at the setup zone.  My units spotted the enemy spawning from the map edge riding in a light recon vehicle and then dismount and take position in the village up the road.  I do not believe the spawning happens within the buildings.

Stefano

[Sgt.Squarehead]

(Big Spoiler Alert)

 

 

 

 

You believe incorrectly.....The recon vehicles spawn at the map edge, the infantry spawn in the buildings. 

[Stefano Z]

21 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

(Big Spoiler Alert)

 

 

 

 

You believe incorrectly.....The recon vehicles spawn at the map edge, the infantry spawn in the buildings. 

Thanks for the correction.  What would have happened if I had decided to raze those buildings to the ground at the beginning of the scenario?  Would the infantry still be able to spawn?

Stefano

[Erwin]

22 minutes ago, Stefano Z said:

Thanks for the correction.  What would have happened if I had decided to raze those buildings to the ground at the beginning of the scenario?  Would the infantry still be able to spawn?

Stefano

Yes.  Think if the extensive tunnel systems dug by ISIS etc. in Syria and Iraq.  Uncons popping up in your rear was not uncommon.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

3 hours ago, Stefano Z said:

Thanks for the correction.  What would have happened if I had decided to raze those buildings to the ground at the beginning of the scenario?  Would the infantry still be able to spawn?

Stefano

They'd spawn in the ruin at a guess.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

I would assume these units are reinforcements who arrive in that position later in the game.This is part of a wider battlefield situation. There is no reason at all that enemy forces (or yours for that matter) could not arrive on a flank.It is annoying and inconvenient when this happens to you but this sometimes happens in war - commanders have to deal with unexpected situations like this.Just consider ow Napoleon felt at Waterloo! :-)

[Sgt.Squarehead]

But they don't arrive on a flank, they materialize out of thin air.....It wouldn't be a massive undertaking to fix it, there's only a single AI plan and I believe it's only got two orders for the AI Group in question (A5 IIRC).

[nik mond]

Whoa, A little perspective here. Its a 6 sq km map. Only 3 specialist teams: a sniper, breach, and scout team spawn in buildings. This is because its what snipers appear to do sometimes, or teams that throw explosives. (concealed in attics or hidey holes). I don't think it should be over done and that's the risk.

Spoiler:

The remnants you fought since the beginning are triggered to reform and counter attack at the same. They may have gone to ground. A couple enemy soft vehicles do reinforce from the map edge.  Your mechanized task-force is conducting Raid, the map is hostile and the main objective is on the other end of the map.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Fair comment, but if you happen to have a unit in one of those locations and a bad guy materializes out of thin air and greases him, you are going to have questions aren't you?

Personally I'd write the one or two extra orders required to have them walk/drive there, or I'd use flavour objects to depict something like a tunnel entrance nearby (marked with a hidden objective that the player can actually find) and have them spawn there and then move into position.....All this being said, I've never written anything on a 6km² map, so please don't take my comments as trashing somebody's efforts, that's not my intent at all.

[Pericles]

I think it is reasonable to expect scenario designers to restrict spawning to the edges of the map to simulate movement from off-map positions; that's more realistic than having a soldier pop up inside a building. 

 

nik mond, thank you for letting me know that "the map is hostile and the main objective is on the other end of the map." ... Had no idea ...

[sburke]

keep putting too many rules about what a scenario designer can or can't do for something they want to create and they'll stop creating.  They obviously had something they wanted to do and forcing a sniper who was meant to be a holdout to trek across the map to get in position is one of those issues I could certainly understand why the designer did what they did.

For all we know that sniper was standing around in civilian clothes watching your men and then at an appropriate moment went and grabbed his rifle out of hiding.  LLF's classic Ramadi battle takes advantage of just the same thing for both yours and the enemy's units.  Roll with it and stop worrying about what you think your units should have seen.

[Pericles]

Too many rules? Scenario designers will stop creating?

Have the units spawn on map boundaries to avoid having them materialize in buildings that have already been cleared. It's that simple. This is not a burdening request, any reasonable person would agree. 

But to each his own. That's my two cents. Scenario was great otherwise, except for the absolutely terrible and clueless BMP spotting I had to endure. 

[nik mond]

I just had to go back and play this one through again and put myself into position to experience this once again. Knowing that the enemy team "materializes 3km from the main objective at 40 minutes into game play, no hold objectives nearby. I still found it hard to keep units out of the fight that far back. But Still there could be a dozen reasons why a player could have a unit there, for sure. Absolutely I get that.

The experience is "hey one of my remnant units in the rear just got killed (or it could be my mortar team). I wonder what killed him! What the !@# there is a sniper in that barn. How did he get here. It probably spawned in not fair.... OK stick to conventions.

No, nothing so sinister as belligerent irregulars masquerading as farmers... Just a Russian defense and security company being well established in the area. Doing what they do. Manning pickets, hidden observation posts, and returning patrols as well. The requirement is for the player to clear a path to the objective. The briefing and notes paint a pretty good picture of a task force and clearly marked objectives, Yeah that's hostile territory for sure. But its not going to give it away.

Look I don't take these things to a personal level or anything, Besides these discussions get cooked for a reason.