U.S. MMG Crew

[JoMac]

Started playing CMFB v4...I noticed that the Crew member holding the MMG that dies, then automagically passes the MMG to another Crew member, and when that Crew member dies it happens again until the last member ends up with it.

I also remember this issue back in earlier versions of CMBN & CMFI, when it also happened to German MMG Weapons Crew (can't remember if it ever got solved)...Will this Bug ever get Squashed. 

Joe

Edited May 3, 2017 by JoMc67

[ASL Veteran]

It's a feature not a bug.  The problem is that you have an MG crew with the main weapon being the MG and then if the gunner dies you don't want to rely on buddy aid in order for the gun team to retain possession of the gun.  Sure, you may be able to take the time to perform the buddy aid if you are the player and you leave the crew in place, but the AI isn't smart enough to stay until the buddy aid is completed.  So you would end up with a bunch of MG teams running around with no MG because the gunner gets killed and the team doesn't do the buddy aid to retain the weapon.  It makes much more sense to have the weapon automatically re manned by another member of the team rather than force the entire team to lose the weapon because nobody picks the weapon out of the cold dead hands of the gunner.  If the weapon is set up on a tripod then the weapon wouldn't be moving, but rather another team member simply repositions to take control of the weapon when the gunner dies. 

[JoMac]

Hmm, and figured someone would say something like that...Oh Well, I guess it's in the interest of play balance :-(

Thanks for the Info...

[sburke]

7 minutes ago, JoMc67 said:

Hmm, and figured someone would say something like that...Oh Well, I guess it's in the interest of play balance :-(

Thanks for the Info...

I don't think it is just an issue of play balance  As a dedicated team on a weapon do you think it unrealistic that another member of the team would immediately take over or is it just a matter of a few seconds delay longer you'd prefer?  Now the immediate instantaneous occupation of the driver seat in a tank... well that is a different item.

[JoMac]

2 hours ago, sburke said:

I don't think it is just an issue of play balance  As a dedicated team on a weapon do you think it unrealistic that another member of the team would immediately take over or is it just a matter of a few seconds delay longer you'd prefer?  Now the immediate instantaneous occupation of the driver seat in a tank... well that is a different item.

Actually, I don't mind if the Team is stationary (or, say move within adjacent Action Spots) and each Crew member mans the MMG automagically...Thou, the running several Action Spots and having the last man to keep the MMG is what bothered me...However, I can understand, 'Hals' explanation on why CM has done it this way. 

[MOS:96B2P]

11 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

<Snip>  I can understand, 'Hals' explanation on why CM has done it this way. 

  That's what @ASL Veteran icon is!!!!  I always thought it was the guidance part of a missile or something.  Hal 9000, very clever.  

[ASL Veteran]

 

[John Kettler]

JoMc67,

Am firmly with sburke's views on this matter. The important thing is to keep that crewe-served weapon in the fight--to the last man if necessary. This is a true account of an incident which took place at the misnamed ferocious Battle of the Tenaru River (really Ilu River), as Marine Sergeant Al Schmid and his MMG crew fought practically their own action against the surging Japanese soldiers of the crack Ichiki Regiment. Schmid received the Navy Cross and Purple Heart following his heroic stand. The quotes from the below HistoryNet article are Italicized. Bold mine.

(Fair Use)

http://www.historynet.com/marine-sergeant-al-schmid-september-96-world-war-ii-feature.htm

 

Marine Sergeant Al Schmid – September ’96 World War II Feature

 

Personality

Marine Sergeant Al Schmid lost an eye while heroically manning a machine gun in bloody fighting on Guadalcanal.

By William B. Allmon

H Company’s machine-gun squad was there also. Schmid and two other Marines, Corporal Leroy Diamond and Pfc John Rivers, manned a .30-caliber water-cooled machine gun inside a sandbag-and-log emplacement camouflaged with palm fronds and jungle greenery. The position was on the west bank of the Ilu, which was 50 yards wide at that point."

This is precisely the kind of weapon under discussion. Always helps when the real world example is directly relevant.

At 3 a.m., August 21, 1942, Ichiki, confident of victory, attacked by the sickly green light of flares. The Japanese yelled, jabbered and fired machine guns, trying to force the Marines to reveal their positions. The Marines held their fire.

Across the river from their nest, Schmid saw a dark, bobbing mass at the edge of the water. “It looked like a herd of cattle coming down to drink,” he remembered. Fifty Japanese crossed the river yelling, “Marine, tonight you die,” and “Banzai,” firing their rifles as they came.

Johnny Rivers opened up on them, and the mass broke up. Screams of rage and pain came from the other side as the Japanese concentrated everything they had on Schmid’s position and on another machine-gun position 150 yards downstream. Bullets whined past the Marines’ heads, throwing mud and wood chips around them. Schmid’s heart pounded rapidly.

The machine gun on their right stopped firing, put out of action. Then a dozen bullets tore into Rivers’ face, killing him. His finger froze on the trigger, sending 200 rounds into the darkness. Cold rage rising in him, Schmid shoved Rivers’ body out of the way and took over the gun. Corporal Diamond got in position to load it for him.

Notice the immediate remanning of the MMG.

Every time Schmid raked the attacking Japanese he heard them yelling as bullets ripped into them. He heard one particular Japanese officer “screeching and barking commands at the others; he had a nasty shrill voice that stood out over the others.” Schmid fired a burst at the voice, but failed to silence it. It would haunt him for years.

Diamond then was hit in the arm, the bullet knocking him partially across Schmid’s feet. He could not load anymore, but while Schmid fired the gun, Diamond stood beside him, spotting targets. Schmid would fire across the river to the left, feel Diamond hitting him hard on the arm and pointing to the right, swing the gun and hear Japanese yelling as his bullets hit them.

The loader is wounded badly enough he can't do his primary job, but is now spotting targets for the chattering MMG., with Schmid at the trigger.

Schmid now was both loading and firing the machine gun. When he got close to the end of a 300-round belt of ammunition, Diamond would punch his arm. Schmid would fire a burst, rip open the magazine, insert a new belt and resume firing. At one point a Japanese soldier put a string of bullets through the .30 caliber’s water jacket. Water spurted over Schmid’s lap and chest; the gun crackled and overheated but did not jam.

This not only reinforces what I said, but shows he continues the fight with a damaged weapon.

Schmid continued loading and firing the machine gun for more than four hours, with and without help. Somehow a Japanese soldier got through the body-choked stream and got close enough to throw a hand grenade into Schmid’s position."

(Cut to)

Schmid is blinded by the grenade and also wounded in the left arm, shoulder and hand.

The Japanese were still pouring bullets into the machine-gun position; Schmid reached around to his holster and took out his .45. Diamond heard him fussing with it and yelled, “Don’t do it, Smitty, don’t shoot yourself.”

“Hell, don’t worry about that,” Schmid said. “I’m going to get the first Jap that tries to come in here!”

“But you can’t see,” Diamond reminded him.

“Just tell me which way he’s coming from and I’ll get him,” Schmid replied.

Both men were helpless in the hole, and it was getting light. A sniper in a tree across the river was firing almost straight down at them. The only thing protecting them was the shelf where the machine gun stood, about 2 feet in diameter.

Although his sight had not come back, Schmid took his position between the spread rear tripod legs of the machine gun, squeezed the trigger and, with Diamond yelling directions in his ear, resumed firing at the Japanese across the river."

He lost one eye outright because of the grenade and sustained major damage to the other, but at the time, he was effectively blind--and still fought the gun!

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited May 5, 2017 by John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

7 hours ago, ASL Veteran said:

 

Yike! It's after us!

Michael

[JoMac]

7 hours ago, John Kettler said:

JoMc67,

Am firmly with sburke's views on this matter. The important thing is to keep that crewe-served weapon in the fight--to the last man if necessary. This is a true account of an incident which took place at the misnamed ferocious Battle of the Tenaru River (really Ilu River), as Marine Sergeant Al Schmid and his MMG crew fought practically their own action against the surging Japanese soldiers of the crack Ichiki Regiment. Schmid received the Navy Cross and Purple Heart following his heroic stand. The quotes from the below HistoryNet article are Italicized. Bold mine.

(Fair Use)

http://www.historynet.com/marine-sergeant-al-schmid-september-96-world-war-ii-feature.htm

 

Marine Sergeant Al Schmid – September ’96 World War II Feature

 

Personality

Marine Sergeant Al Schmid lost an eye while heroically manning a machine gun in bloody fighting on Guadalcanal.

By William B. Allmon

H Company’s machine-gun squad was there also. Schmid and two other Marines, Corporal Leroy Diamond and Pfc John Rivers, manned a .30-caliber water-cooled machine gun inside a sandbag-and-log emplacement camouflaged with palm fronds and jungle greenery. The position was on the west bank of the Ilu, which was 50 yards wide at that point."

This is precisely the kind of weapon under discussion. Always helps when the real world example is directly relevant.

At 3 a.m., August 21, 1942, Ichiki, confident of victory, attacked by the sickly green light of flares. The Japanese yelled, jabbered and fired machine guns, trying to force the Marines to reveal their positions. The Marines held their fire.

Across the river from their nest, Schmid saw a dark, bobbing mass at the edge of the water. “It looked like a herd of cattle coming down to drink,” he remembered. Fifty Japanese crossed the river yelling, “Marine, tonight you die,” and “Banzai,” firing their rifles as they came.

Johnny Rivers opened up on them, and the mass broke up. Screams of rage and pain came from the other side as the Japanese concentrated everything they had on Schmid’s position and on another machine-gun position 150 yards downstream. Bullets whined past the Marines’ heads, throwing mud and wood chips around them. Schmid’s heart pounded rapidly.

The machine gun on their right stopped firing, put out of action. Then a dozen bullets tore into Rivers’ face, killing him. His finger froze on the trigger, sending 200 rounds into the darkness. Cold rage rising in him, Schmid shoved Rivers’ body out of the way and took over the gun. Corporal Diamond got in position to load it for him.

Notice the immediate remanning of the MMG.

Every time Schmid raked the attacking Japanese he heard them yelling as bullets ripped into them. He heard one particular Japanese officer “screeching and barking commands at the others; he had a nasty shrill voice that stood out over the others.” Schmid fired a burst at the voice, but failed to silence it. It would haunt him for years.

Diamond then was hit in the arm, the bullet knocking him partially across Schmid’s feet. He could not load anymore, but while Schmid fired the gun, Diamond stood beside him, spotting targets. Schmid would fire across the river to the left, feel Diamond hitting him hard on the arm and pointing to the right, swing the gun and hear Japanese yelling as his bullets hit them.

The loader is wounded badly enough he can't do his primary job, but is now spotting targets for the chattering MMG., with Schmid at the trigger.

Schmid now was both loading and firing the machine gun. When he got close to the end of a 300-round belt of ammunition, Diamond would punch his arm. Schmid would fire a burst, rip open the magazine, insert a new belt and resume firing. At one point a Japanese soldier put a string of bullets through the .30 caliber’s water jacket. Water spurted over Schmid’s lap and chest; the gun crackled and overheated but did not jam.

This not only reinforces what I said, but shows he continues the fight with a damaged weapon.

Schmid continued loading and firing the machine gun for more than four hours, with and without help. Somehow a Japanese soldier got through the body-choked stream and got close enough to throw a hand grenade into Schmid’s position."

(Cut to)

Schmid is blinded by the grenade and also wounded in the left arm, shoulder and hand.

The Japanese were still pouring bullets into the machine-gun position; Schmid reached around to his holster and took out his .45. Diamond heard him fussing with it and yelled, “Don’t do it, Smitty, don’t shoot yourself.”

“Hell, don’t worry about that,” Schmid said. “I’m going to get the first Jap that tries to come in here!”

“But you can’t see,” Diamond reminded him.

“Just tell me which way he’s coming from and I’ll get him,” Schmid replied.

Both men were helpless in the hole, and it was getting light. A sniper in a tree across the river was firing almost straight down at them. The only thing protecting them was the shelf where the machine gun stood, about 2 feet in diameter.

Although his sight had not come back, Schmid took his position between the spread rear tripod legs of the machine gun, squeezed the trigger and, with Diamond yelling directions in his ear, resumed firing at the Japanese across the river."

He lost one eye outright because of the grenade and sustained major damage to the other, but at the time, he was effectively blind--and still fought the gun!

Regards,

John Kettler

Ok, so we are all in agreement that the MG should be Setup and handed down in the same or Surrounding Action-Spots...As it is now.

Oh, and SHHHhhhh....If BF sees this thread (especially your post) they might decide there was a mistake in v4, and make appropriate adjustements...We don't wan't that MG Crew running away at the first sign of Enemy Contact, now do we. 

Edited May 5, 2017 by JoMc67

[Erwin]

It makes sense that a crewman would take over when the gunner is out of action.  But, the example outlined above is one extraordinary event that cannot and should not be used as evidence of a general rule.  The guy didn't get the medals cos that is what always happened.  He got the medals for extraordinary bravery. 

One could argue that the example given above is evidence that normally, a crewman would NOT step in to replace the gunner.  You don't get medals for doing things that are normal or an everyday occurrence. 

[Michael Emrys]

38 minutes ago, Erwin said:

You don't get medals for doing things that are normal or an everyday occurrence. 

It varied. Sometimes a lot. Especially early in the war, when the Powers That Be wanted to shore up morale, they sometimes handed out medals for doing perfectly ordinary things (although in the case cited the awards were obviously well-earned). In other instances, acts above and beyond the call of duty went unrecognized and unrewarded. It could also make a difference depending on who you were and how good your connections were.

Michael

[John Kettler]

Erwin,

What I sought was an example to illustrate the principle under discussion. These was simply an extreme outlier. But the basic rule remains the same: You keep your high firepower weapons in the fight if at all possible. Here's another example. I just got a used copy of Panzer Killers, by Artem Drabkin. In the photo section is one of a ZIS-3 in action in winter, with only two men left. One crewman is face down in the snow, quite dead. There's a similar picture from Kursk, believe it's in Cornwell's book, but this time it's a M30 122 mm howitzer fighting against armor in a DF role. There is a dead crewman draped over the left gun trail. The BAR isn't technically a crew served weapon, but if you read SLAM's The River and the Gauntlet it talks about how the GIs willingly contributed ammo from their M1 Garands simply to keep the BARs in the fight at all costs against Chinese human wave attacks. To keep MGs in the fight the men would pee on the actions to unstick them and into the cooling jackets to keep the barrels on already worn equipment functioning. 

Regards,

John Kettler

[Erwin]

"You keep your high firepower weapons in the fight if at all possible."  Yes, I said I agree with that.  Was pointing out that using extreme outliers as examples is rather bogus and not helpful in proving the point. 

It's like trying to prove that using safety belts are dangerous cos of one horrific example where some poor sod was trapped by his seatbelt and burned to death.

[Bulletpoint]

On 5/5/2017 at 7:13 AM, John Kettler said:

Somehow a Japanese soldier got through the body-choked stream and got close enough to throw a hand grenade into Schmid’s position."

I wonder if he got a medal for bravery, too?

[Tux]

43 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I wonder if he got a medal for bravery, too?

Just what I was wondering.

To be honest, though, in my opinion that whole piece reads as though it was written by a credulous adolescent. If it wasn't for the fact that it is (presumably) based on an official medal citation then I wouldn't bother believing any of it.

Out of interest, and not wishing to cast doubt on anything in particular, what level of evidence/corroboration is/was required for a medal to be awarded for extraordinary acts?  Presumably it varies depending on factors such as those described by Mr Emrys, above, but what is an acceptable minimum?  Apologies if that should be for a new topic...

[John Kettler]

Bulletpoint and Tux,

Given the wholesale slaughter inflicted on the Ichiki's 28th Infantry Regiment, composed of the best soldiers Japan had (in combat since 1937 and accustomed to winning), this is doubtful in the extreme. This account should prove informative. Additionally, besides the M1919 MMGs present, there were also 2 x M6 ATGs firing canister. This battle was a bloodbath for the elite of Japan's infantry. So confident was Colonel Ichiki of victory he left over half his regiment, 1200 men behind, thinking the total American force was only 2000 men--when it was 15,000! So he had only 900, of which 700 became casualties. In fact, it was worse than that, for 100 men had been left guarding the supplies at the landing point. So 700 casualties out of 800 men. How many POW? Fifteen (15)! Why? After a number of Japanese soldiers had played dead, then returned to the fight, the Marines went around putting "make sure" shots into anyone not obviously dead who didn't surrender, but most, as documented by Richard Tregaskis, blew themselves up with grenades rather than be captured. There was also the small matter of the survivors who broke contact being machine gunned, ripped by canister and ground under the tracks by 4 x M3A1 Stuarts who outflanked them. The fleeing survivors were also strafed by newly arrived F4F Wildcats! 

Regards,

John Kettler  

Edited May 6, 2017 by John Kettler