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Oleksandr

Ukrainian Side is Seriously Underpowered

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I'm just relating Ukrainian anecdotes I read on the web. Lets remember the Russians applied applique armor to their BMP-2 sides in the mid-80s because protection from small arms fire was inadequate.

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I recall reading that American TD forces in Italy got M18 hellcat to replace their old M10s and some units hated them so much that they converted back to M10s again. Hellcat had 13mm side armor, M0 had 20-25mm side armor and it made aaaaaaaall the difference when facing mg fire.

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On 9/3/2019 at 3:11 AM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Is it my imagination or are things getting a bit desperate? 

Why "desperate"?  This is upgrade for foreign BTR-50 operators, not for Ukrainian army

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14 hours ago, MikeyD said:

I'm just relating Ukrainian anecdotes I read on the web. Lets remember the Russians applied applique armor to their BMP-2 sides in the mid-80s because protection from small arms fire was inadequate.

Not small arms. Ambushes with Chinese DShK in Afghanistan. Neither BMP-1 nor BMP-2 will withstand 12.7mm at the hull side.

Edited by IMHO

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33 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

Why "desperate"?  This is upgrade for foreign BTR-50 operators, not for Ukrainian army

Like who?  Are you selling direct to the jihadis these days?  :o

Because only someone with a very strong desire to meet his maker would take that POS into battle!  :lol:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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The reference I saw was explicitly about 7.62 steel core rounds piercing BRT-70 and BMP-1.
Stryker needed expensive ceramic armor tiles (a whopping 52mm RHA equivalent) to reach the protection level where it could defeat DShK rounds from 50mm. Actually, the supplier had goofed on the specs on the first batch of Mexas tiles and the Strylers deployed under-armored. Technicians had to be rushed to Kuwait to install an extra 3mm soft steel backing plate to each ceramic tile before they were up to code.

Edited by MikeyD

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10 hours ago, MikeyD said:

The reference I saw was explicitly about 7.62 steel core rounds piercing BRT-70 and BMP-1.

7.62 AP penetration is 5, 7, 10mm depending on the type of the round. BTR-70 has 6mm side armor so BTR-70 story is plausible. BMP-1 has 16-18mm side armor - It's hard to believe there might be direct penetrations through side armor. But I found references that there were rare penetrations at hatchways or back doors with 7.62 APs from very short distances.The more realistic case is 7.62 AP penetrations at the roof and upper glacis from high above. Like top stories of the buildings and gun nests at mountain crests. Upper glacis and the roof are no more than BTR-70 armor.

BMP-1D - an uparmored variant of BMP-1 - was made to protect specifically from non-AP rounds 12.7 from long distances. No more than that. 12.7 is still able to penetrate the sides - infantry losses were decreased but not eliminated altogether.

Edited by IMHO

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            my small exp with BS has me of the opinion that most h2h players prefer clashes with Ukrainian forces and Russian for balance. Am I mistaken? If not I don't see an issue unless the scope of the conflict in BS is expanded. Maybe an expansion "the real war of 2019"? that would be great fun to be fair.

Edited by grungar
inaccurate

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On 9/5/2019 at 11:38 PM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Are you selling direct to the jihadis these days?

Hm... Current operators, which armies use big number of BTR-50 are Egypt, Sudan, Vietnam. Also small number has Croatia, traditional Ukrainian partner on military market. What exactly of this armies are jihadists? But of course, Russian weapon supplying of Hezbolla terrorists via Iran this is normal thing.     

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2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Hey, the US appears to be supplying ISIS via Serbia & Romania.....It's all good, I guess?  :rolleyes:

Is this Russia Today info? Ok, then I believe this is 146% of true! I say more - ISIS used Ukranian BTR-4 in Iraq, so Ukraine supplied ISIS, this is obviously!

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Right up there with Fox News & CNN in the state run propaganda front, eh?  ;)

Except that Newsweek were reporting the same thing almost a year ago:

https://www.newsweek.com/europe-limit-us-saudi-weapons-sales-went-isis-1215758

But this time it's supported by documentary evidence:

Yugo-Kru-Rev-PL-82mm-HE-GXX_10500ea.jpg

http://armswatch.com/islamic-state-weapons-in-yemen-traced-back-to-us-government-serbia-files-part-1/?fbclid=IwAR2bxM2dKiEM4hMohVRNYbV33v0s7bwFqaFXFmu4lcm_2yD2E9j5sfwP83c

 

 

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10 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Right up there with Fox News & CNN in the state run propaganda front, eh?  ;)

I am hoping you are joking but I fear not. Russia today is a state owned propaganda machine. Fox and CNN are clearly not (hint do they both tow the Trump White House line - yeah I didn't think so).

10 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Except that Newsweek were reporting the same thing almost a year ago:

https://www.newsweek.com/europe-limit-us-saudi-weapons-sales-went-isis-1215758

I wonder - are you wilfully misleading us? The very article you quote:

Quote

ISIS's rapid takeover, however, was assisted by U.S. weapons looted from government forces in Iraq and from Syrian fighters that either were defeated or absorbed by the militant group. In December, the U.K.-based Conflict Armament Research released a report that accused the U.S. and Saudi Arabia of intentionally violating EU rules by purchasing "large numbers" of European arms and ammunition and then quietly diverting them to nonstate actors in Syria without telling the suppliers.

Clearly sending arms to a place as chaotic as Syria is not a safe way to act. You will not hear me defending supplying arms to groups that are not clearly friends of the people of Syria but that is a far cry from supporting ISIS. So ISIS got some weapons by capturing them in Iraq and Syria and those weapons got to Syria via clandestine means - the US at least was trying to supply anti regime forces not ISIS directly. I have no idea what the hell the Saudis were doing because they frequently appear to act against their own interests so who knows about them. Even the Saudis did declare they were not supplying ISIS - but I question if the groups they were supplying were actually any better than ISIS.

None of this is the US selling arms to ISIS. None of this Ukraine selling arms to ISIS. So, yeah it sounds more like Russian Today total BS that you are falling for without even thinking for just a few moments.

What it is though is the exposing of the folly of thinking that supplying arms to anti Syrian regime forces when it was way to late for those forces to actually be effective against ISIS or Assad.

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16 minutes ago, IanL said:

I am hoping you are joking but I fear not. Russia today is a state owned propaganda machine. Fox and CNN are clearly not (hint do they both tow the Trump White House line - yeah I didn't think so).

Yes & no.

There's more than one way to control media and the public perception thereof.

16 minutes ago, IanL said:

None of this is the US selling arms to ISIS.

That is precisely what it is, as the documentation makes perfectly plain.....All the cutouts & fronts in the world don't change the fact that weapons from the same batch purchased by a US company have turned up in the hands of ISIS in several countries!

Imagine the FBI discovered that US gangs were mysteriously being supplied with weapons bought by a Russian company, purportedly for use in Mexico.....All hell would break loose.

16 minutes ago, IanL said:

So, yeah it sounds more like Russian Today total BS that you are falling for without even thinking for just a few moments.

Unnecessary, rude and TBH a display of sheer ignorance.....What did you expect, a memo on White House headed stationary?

Cut the double-standards.....If this level of evidence were ever presented against the Russians, you would be all over it like flies on ****.

16 minutes ago, IanL said:

What it is though is the exposing of the folly of thinking that supplying arms to anti Syrian regime forces when it was way to late for those forces to actually be effective against ISIS or Assad.

Agreed.....Adding more guns to a situation rarely results in a sudden ceasefire.

PS - What gives the US, NATO or anyone else a say on Syria?  Maybe answer that one before spouting off inanities.

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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Well I think you are wrong about nearly everything you posted again but this is way OT already and probably inappropriate. Let's just leave it at I didn't think you should be able to assert something untrue and you got some rude in back at me so we are even and let this thread go back to talking about the state of the representation of Ukrainian forces in the game Black Sea.

 

19 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

PS - What gives the US, NATO or anyone else a say on Syria?  Maybe answer that one before spouting off inanities.

Yeah, exactly that is the question. I don't think they do. The fact that you think I do speaks volumes. Don't forget to also ask what gave the Assad regime the right to murder its own citizens who were protesting (that's how this started - I mean before the defections of the Syrian Army and the following civil war) and since when does Iran and Saudi Arabia have any right to insert their own actors in there to mess around. And then why is it OK for Russia to support a murderous dictatorship when it is not OK for the US to do it. Your question while worded in a lopsided way is actually *the* root question.

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It seems we are probably actually more in agreement than we disagree.....But I suspect we both actually knew that already.

The story of the start of the Syrian civil-war remains to be examined in detail, suffice it to say that the version presented by the western media has a certain bias.....When the truth comes out, which it always does, nobody will come away smelling of roses.

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'US arming ISIS' was a straight-up Kremlin disinformation planted story that was eagerly taken up by right wing media. Its credibility from the outset was on par with 'Obama founded ISIS' or 'Hillary was Muslim Brotherhood mole'.

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39 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

It seems we are probably actually more in agreement than we disagree.....But I suspect we both actually knew that already.

Well in balance perhaps.

 

39 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

The story of the start of the Syrian civil-war remains to be examined in detail, suffice it to say that the version presented by the western media has a certain bias.

Not fully examined - true. Any hope that I'll buy any silly conspiracy claims - not likely.

 

39 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

....When the truth comes out, which it always does, nobody will come away smelling of roses.

Well that is highly likely.

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30 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

'US arming ISIS' was a straight-up Kremlin disinformation planted story that was eagerly taken up by right wing media. Its credibility from the outset was on par with 'Obama founded ISIS' or 'Hillary was Muslim Brotherhood mole'.

well yes, what actually happened and it has been fairly well documented over the years is the U.S. supplied the Iraqi army/various rebel groups with expensive equipment. This being the Middle East, they abandoned the equipment upon contact with ISIS forces and/or defected to ISIS who "acquired" said equipment.

This is hardly a new phenomenom.

In the early 60s, the Vietcong was also equipped with various brand new U.S. weapons they had picked up from fleeing South Vietnamese forces...

Edited by Sgt Joch
spelling

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2 hours ago, MikeyD said:

'US arming ISIS' was a straight-up Kremlin disinformation planted story that was eagerly taken up by right wing media. Its credibility from the outset was on par with 'Obama founded ISIS' or 'Hillary was Muslim Brotherhood mole'.

Timber Sycamore was publicly admitted by the US government?

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On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 9:23 AM, IMHO said:

7.62 AP penetration is 5, 7, 10mm depending on the type of the round. 

Or in some cases, up to 20mm. Type classified as M993 in the US army.

http://www.amkat.se/index.php?Env=Ammo&Menu_A=30&Menu_B=70&Menu_C=50&Menu_Value_A=7,62x51&Menu_Value_B=Armour piercing&Menu_Name=AP

Other rounds, may exeed that to.

Even the 5.56 round penetrates 12mm RHA 300HB at 100m. And is type classified by US army as M995.

http://www.amkat.se/index.php?Env=Ammo&Menu_A=30&Menu_B=10&Menu_C=50&Menu_Value_A=5,56x45&Menu_Value_B=AP&Menu_Name=AP

Edited by Armorgunner

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3 hours ago, Armorgunner said:

Or in some cases, up to 20mm. Type classified as M993 in the US army.

The trick is in wording: they say 20mm of steel, not 20mm of RHA.

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17 minutes ago, IMHO said:

yThe trick is in wording: they say 20mm of steel, not 20mm of RHA.

Nope, its not. It is RHA 300HB. It´s the same Swedish manufacturer for both the M993, and the M995.

"I can help with a little history. The Swedish rounds that were adopted by the U.S. military as M993 & M995 were developed by Forenede FabriksVerken (FFV in Karlsborg, Sweden)) in the late 80s. The earliest headstamps are "070" until '90 then "FFV" in '91. FFV merged with Carl Gustav/Bofors in '91-'92 who started headstamping the 5.56mm & 7.62mm AP cartridges "CG". Raufoss of MK 211 MOD 0 .50 Cal HEIAP fame also merged into the CG/ Bofors group in 1993. Then Carl Gustav/Bofors and several other Nordic munitions manufacturer's all merged into NAMMO in '98. NAMMO kept the "CG" headstamp. The U.S. type classified 7.62MM M993 AP cartridge 02/16/96 and 5.56mm M995 AP cartridge 03/29/96. What you have is M995 manufactured by NAMMO in 2006."

Edited by Armorgunner

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