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John Kettler

Ukraine should request UAE donate some of these!

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Behold the Jobaria MCL (Multiple Cradle Launcher)--the very definition of withering bombardment system! Looks like something out of SF, but it's arguably one of the most powerful conventional weapons out there.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler

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5 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Behold the Jobaria MCL (Multiple Cradle Launcher)--the very definition of withering bombardment system! Looks like something out of SF, but it's arguably one of the most powerful conventional weapons out there.

Regards,

John Kettler

Wow, I love how the music ends and the thing is still launching for a full minute afterwards. In total silence.

Pretty horrifying if proliferated, considering the reported use of heavy ordinance in current conflicts though. Them hospitals won't stand a chance.

Better for UKR to adopt a "Javelin in every pot" strategy, (if CMBS is any kind of guide).

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21 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Behold the Jobaria MCL (Multiple Cradle Launcher)--the very definition of withering bombardment system! 

Heh... Why we should request UAE about this...mmm... MLRS-train ? :) Possibly it's good for flat dry desert, but in our spring and autumn black-soil mud it just will bog down.

UKR now is adopting new guided rocket "Vil'kha" (eng. alder) for "Smerch", in this way "Smerch" will turn in some equal of HIMARS (except SAM component)

Salvo of Smerch on Donbas, summer 2014

Russians in September 2014 conducted as minimum two strikes with "Smerch" on our rear base camps in 60 km from the border, whcih were dislocated near villages Dmytrivka and Pobeda (50 km north from Luhansk). Russian command on eve of shelling have sent to our troops in that area ultimatum - to withdraw or will be destroyed. Our command was forced to accept ultimatum, but havn't time to evacuate all personnel and vehicles from that camps. About in 22:30 of 3 Sep enemy rockets hit the camp near Pobeda, and in the night between 3 and 4 Dep - the camp near Dmytrivka. Remained personnel hide in blindages and brick farms, but in Pobeda a 300 mm rocket hit blindage and kill at once 16 servicemen of 27th MLRS regiment (has MLRS "Uragan"). In Dmytrivka were killed 5 soldiers three of 1st tank brigade and two of 12th territorial defense battalion. Number of wounded I don't recall now. Almost all vehicles, equipment and things remained in camps were destroyed. Among armor in both camps were destroyed BM "Bulat", BMP-2K, BTR-80, two MTLB, two special vehicles on base of BTR-80.  

Also 10 Feb of 2015 Russian launched cassete rockets of "Tornado-S" ("Smerch" with upgraded targeting system) on Kramatorsk airfield. Before attack Russian UAV (Orlan-10... may be...) was detected over the airfield and shot down with SAM "Buk". Since some time rockets twice with 30 min intervals rained the airfield and the city. 17 people were killed (7 millitary) and 64 wounded (17 military), was demaged one helicopter and radar.

 

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Haiduk,

My OP was me being a bit humorous, but if someone wants to play the Grad game, this is what I call a winning hand. What you describe is something else altogether and downright scary to boot. Do you/does UKR high command believe the first BM-30 attack was counterbattery or simply directed at general destruction? Sounds like Pobeda got hit with unitary warheads (no mention by you of cassette) and lots of them, judging by all the AFV losses you report. BM-30 DPICM delivered by 9M55K ( same on Tornado-S as Smerch?) rocket (646 submunitions per rocket) seems very much on par with the US MLRS, in which rockets, as designed, carried 616 M42 DPICM submunitions. In both cases, what doesn't hit something solid and detonates as HEAT now goes off as HE Frag. All I can say is thank goodness those bombardments didn't catch a major UKR force in an assembly area. I shudder to think what sort of havoc would've ensued had the Russian reconnaissance-strike complexes been unleashed on one of those!

Regards,

John Kettler

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CMSF and CM:Afghanistan do have the older BM-21 artillery rocket system. Which I believe is 40(?) missile tubes? I remember building a scenario where 3 batteries all fired in the first minute of gameplay. They made a conscious decision to leave artillery rockets out of CMBS. They didn't consider them to be an on-demand tactical infantry support system. They're controlled higher up the food chain than company commanders. At least that's my recollection of the rationale. In CMBN/FB QB players don't much like the Calliope/Xylophon artillery rockets appearing during a game. I can't recall anyone particularly commenting on the CMRT Russian WWII artillery rockets in-game, probably because they're so cumbersome to use.

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MIkeyD,

Given that the biggest Brigade level weapon on the US side, which has nothing but 155 mm SP in the ABCT and 155 mm (towed) in the SBCT

 

ABCT.png

 

IBCT.png

Image Credits: CrucilbleX via Wikimedia Commons

and a mix of 155 mm (towed) and 105 mm (towed) in the IBCT, BFC's decision makes sense, unless talking the prepared offense or defense, where Corps level assets (presuming such a formation exists within the CMBS overall scenario), could and should, in my view, be available. 

It's a whole different ball game on the Russian side of the equation, which is readily shown below. Both the Tank Brigade and the Motor Rifle Brigade have an organic MRL Battalion (18 x BM-21 Grad)! It could be even worse than that, for Suvorov/Rezun said Regiment COs, presumably in Motor Rifle units, have what we might call "baby Grad," apparently Grad-V, in addition to their mortars. He was right about Vasilek, so I think it would be wise to pay attention to the baby Grad claim, though I'd welcome anything on this from our Russian and Ukrainian colleagues.

Russian_Ground_Forces_-_Tank_Brigade_Str

Russian_Ground_Forces_-_Motor_Rifle_Brig

 

Image Credits: Noclador via Wikimedia Commons

Given the above, the Russians and maybe Ukrainians have a legitimate complaint at the exclusion of MRLs from the game. Those missing 18 x BM-21s in the Tank Brigade and Motor Rifle Brigade, as well as the even scarier Independent Motor Rifle Brigade (not shown), offer clout US Brigade level FA can't match, which is one of the reasons why you see articles coming out openly worrying the US is now behind the Russians when it comes to FS. While garnering approbation in some circles, the US move away from DPICM is, to put it kindly, extremely ill-advised. Am not sure what happened to FASCAM. Was and am of the firm opnion that what's doable on a real battlefield of this period ought to be doable in CMBS. While I'd certainly agree the MRLs wouldn't be used for small targets, I can certainly see their being used in the prepared offense and defense. In the former, it would most likely be prep fire. In the latter, it would be defensive fires on a committed major attack. 

Regards,

John Kettler 

 

Edited by John Kettler

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8 hours ago, MikeyD said:

CMSF and CM:Afghanistan do have the older BM-21 artillery rocket system. Which I believe is 40(?) missile tubes? I remember building a scenario where 3 batteries all fired in the first minute of gameplay. They made a conscious decision to leave artillery rockets out of CMBS. They didn't consider them to be an on-demand tactical infantry support system. They're controlled higher up the food chain than company commanders. At least that's my recollection of the rationale. In CMBN/FB QB players don't much like the Calliope/Xylophon artillery rockets appearing during a game. I can't recall anyone particularly commenting on the CMRT Russian WWII artillery rockets in-game, probably because they're so cumbersome to use.

All depends from map size - CMSF had smaller maps, thus, of course, on small-sized map MLRS salvo will cause mass destruction (and may be for own troops too). But on large map their usage have a sense. On Donbas MLRS uses in so wide scale, that I, think, in case of full-scale conflict its usage will have much more level, so, there is no reason to cut off its form the game. For example, during Vuhlehirsk battle, limited salvo of Grads on DNR forces was launched on demand of company size forces, besiged in the town, though by field manuals, usage of Grad is possible not closer then 1000 m from forward lines of own troops. So, I think, when player select "huge" size of map, MLRS should appear in unit list.

They're controlled higher up the food chain than company commanders.

In that case corps-level arty support should be also deleted. 2S19, 2A65 and 2S7 uses by decision of sector command, but not for requests of company commanders

Edited by Haiduk

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Continuing the issue of MRLs the Russians (and maybe Ukrainians) don't have, it gets far worse with the so-called "New Divisions," for they have more advanced MRLs.

4th Guards (Kantemirovskaya), one of the two initial New Divisions, has a SP Artillery Regiment, whose MRL Battalion ( reportedly armed with Tornado-G) has 18 MRLs. Tornado-G has twice the range of the familiar Grad. It can fire unitary HE, DPICM, SFW, AT minelets, etc. So says Wiki. This source doesn't mention unitary warheads at all. Nobody mentions CW warheads (or worse), either. Nor am I certain whether this one has a GPS guided rocket (now a precision guided missile by western standards). Very confusing.
 

4th_Guards_Tank_Division.png

The 2nd Guards "Tamanskaya" Motor Rifle Division, the other of the initial two New divisions, has an entire Artillery Regiment, with a MRL Battalion armed identically.

2nd_Guards_Motor_Rifle_Division.png

Image Credits: Noclador via Wikimedia Commons

Naturally, the above further reinforces the argument for Russian forces to have MRLs at the CMBS level. We already have, I believe, brave souls fighting regimental actions. I invite  our Russian and Ukrainian colleagues to wade in on the New Division discussion. Frankly, I'm in overwhelm over the very complicated (possibly made deliberately so by the Russian MoD) particulars of Tornado-G, in the broader context of a weapon system which seemingly can be 122 mm, 220 mm or 300 mm. Would also appreciate the specifics on the rockets, whatever they are, for the Tornado-G.

Regards,

John Kettler

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