Russians Underpowered, US Overpowered in CMBS?

[Bydax]

T-72B3 obr. 2016

Edited March 24, 2017 by Bydax

[IMHO]

@panzersaurkrautwerfer, ERA was basically unpenetrable by older APs used by potential Indian adversaries.

Edited March 24, 2017 by IMHO

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

1 hour ago, IMHO said:

@panzersaurkrautwerfer, ERA was basically unpenetrable by older APs used by potential Indian adversaries.

They'd have gotten similar results from several other tanks (even arguably simply better ERA for their existing T-72).  The decisive element was that the Indians had a lot of experience and parts from the T-72, so making the transition to the T-90 was viewed as economically sound.

[TheForwardObserver]

What do we think about these interesting little guys?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8-inDOfxpc

Edited March 25, 2017 by TheForwardObserver

[HerrTom]

12 minutes ago, TheForwardObserver said:

What do we think about these interesting little guys?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8-inDOfxpc

Vacationers?  Possibly related to the trench-by-trench actions Haiduk is reporting in the other thread?

[Artkin]

T90A/M rocks anyway regardless of what BF thinks 

[Artkin]

Also contrary to this thread... 

 

Couldn't help but laugh my ss off. They know NATO includes the United States right?

[TheForwardObserver]

4 minutes ago, HerrTom said:

Vacationers?  Possibly related to the trench-by-trench actions Haiduk is reporting in the other thread?

Yes, but the tanks, look at the tanks.  

[Artkin]

They're just B3's... what's to worry about? 

[TheForwardObserver]

@ArtkinI know what they are mate thanks.  Nothing about these tanks stands out to anyone?

Edited March 25, 2017 by TheForwardObserver

[Vanir Ausf B]

The Kontakt-5 ERA layout has been modified on the hull skirts. It looks similar to the hull array on T-90SM

Edited March 25, 2017 by Vanir Ausf B

[Artkin]

My point was, if they were T90's then you should have to worry 

[John Kettler]

TheForwardObserver,

Main force unit if ever I saw one. Now, will the crews "get lost" while operating near the border or will they simply supply more "mining equipment" to the "coal miners"of the Donbas? Would love to see some catastrophic equipment failure before either occurs. Imagine bellingcat, InfoNapalm and such are hard at work figuring out who these guys are--if they don't know already.

Vanir Ausf B,

Good eye!  DIA will be in touch shortly.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

TheForwardObserver,

That looks like a full Tank Company of the Independent 13-tank sort. Or did I miss a bunch?

Regards,

John Kettler

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

This thread is wandering badly.  

[TheForwardObserver]

T-72B3s in 2017 on the border with Ukraine sporting modernized armor packages that differ from what we have in-game seems relevant to this discussion.

[John Kettler]

Sgt.Squarehead,

Guarantee you analysts at DIA and such got pretty excited when that new armor package on the T-72B3 was first observed and that deployment of frontline Russian tanks so configured to the border is assuredly also of interest. If the Russians have this stuff, as they clearly do, then I would absolutely support its inclusion in CMBS. How's that for coming back directly to the OP? Besides, these tanks look cool in their archetypal Russian green. They also look, as the British say, like they still have their shop varnish on. They look as if they came straight out of the rebuild facility.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Am still waiting for some response from BFC's end regarding the apparent lack of overhead coverage from Shtora in the game vs the live fire video. See, for example 1:14 et seq. Will be the first to say I have no idea whether or not it's simply too late at that stage to either seduce the tracker off course or simply overwhelm the guidance computerr with too much information from too many directions, but I can't see how it wouldn't be of at least some help vs top attack. It's entirely possible ballistics alone that late in the flight will suffice to guarantee a hit, particularly in the case of a Maverick and especially JDAM.

Here's a short manufacturer's video full of grog goodness on the BMD-4 Bakcha-U. Hope I didn't screw that up. In any event, this is a real treat to watch. The havoc these things could cause in rear areas practically beggars description.

Regards,

John Kettler

[DMS]

7 hours ago, HerrTom said:

Vacationers?  Possibly related to the trench-by-trench actions Haiduk is reporting in the other thread?

Yes, sure, tank battalion (numbers say that there are at least 2 companies) moves to take part in another platoon level skirmish in DPR.

[Haiduk]

 

9 hours ago, TheForwardObserver said:

What do we think about these interesting little guys?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8-inDOfxpc

This is new variant of T-72B3 with "additional protection". Moved to Rostov region for new-established 150th  motor-rifle division. Russian MoD have oedered 154 T-72B3 in such variant. But this is not T-72B3M

Edited March 25, 2017 by Haiduk

[akd]

6 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Am still waiting for some response from BFC's end regarding the apparent lack of overhead coverage from Shtora in the game vs the live fire video. See, for example 1:14 et seq.

 

All air-bursting smoke in game is not air-bursting.

https://youtu.be/TODr5NKNuCg

 

6 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Will be the first to say I have no idea whether or not it's simply too late at that stage to either seduce the tracker off course or simply overwhelm the guidance computerr with too much information from too many directions, but I can't see how it wouldn't be of at least some help vs top attack.

 

 

You mean vs Javelin?  How is Shtora going to be triggered vs. Javelin unless tank crew sees launch?

[John Kettler]

akd,

Good point. Was thinking of an array of air delivered munitions, as indicated, with Javelin obviously being critical in terms of needing a direct hit. Was under the impression Shtora-1 had full hemispheric surveillance capability, but I was wrong. It's good only up to 25 degrees. That might catch a Maverick or a JDAM but looks pretty hopeless vs Javelin. If a tank formation comes under attack and people start popping broadband obscurant, that offers a whole 20 seconds of persistence after a 3 second deployment time. Maybe there's some factor at work here I don't know about, but having direct overhead coverage when your detection gear can't see there to begin with is both bizarre and, on the face of it, a waste of resources. Now, if I were the Russians, I'd have launchers for those broadband obscurants all over the place. If you watch some of the Russian exercises, you'll see jets or helos swooping low and interposing a blanket of obscurants between the foe and the attacking force. This is something not doable in the game but would make, weather permitting, quite a difference at CMBS scale. If would produce the sort of knife fight the Americans don't want, for the Abrams would be quite killable at those ranges, especially with the T-90AM involved.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Codename Duchess]

Intercepting a JDAM or Maverick (or their Russian equivalents) with APS isn't going to make much of a difference to the poor tank crew on the receiving end, even if it's possible.

As for aircraft delivered obscurants it seems like a really wasteful use of resources.  You'd need like total air supremacy for it to work which wouldnt happen vs the US, and the kinds of potential enemies where it would work would be curb stomped anyway. Plus it's stupid risky. Great propaganda footage, though. Artillery would be so much more practical.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Codename Duchess

[John Kettler]

Codename Duchess,

Believe you misunderstood me. Wasn't talking APS, but just obscurants. We've already had the discussion of what happens to the tank even if the Maverick explodes. A direct hit from a dud JDAM will KO the tank one way or another, and a near miss which fuzes will take it out, too. Am not quite sure what the Russians achieve with overhead obscurants, though I did read in the Tankograd article I posted in the "How to ID the T-64/T-72/T-80" thread that the basic idea is to move the tank smartly from its prior position while obscured. The cloud dimensions are large enough to create significant location uncertainty, but I think this is more to do with as viewed from the ground. Shtora reaction time is ~ 3 seconds, and then there's TOF as well. Not sure how the numbers work for the overhead case, considering the airburst is so low it's only a handful of tank heights high. This would help. Against munitions coming in from above 25 degree elevation, absent crash mods to increase that number, I think the Russians are screwed. I do believe the obscurants would ruin the life of someone trying to deliver a laser guided weapon while designating from ground or NOE. It would swallow the beam, leaving no reflected laser pulses on which to guide. How things would work from your end, presuming from the plane designation, I couldn't say. Perhaps you could help us on that one. Laser guided JDAM is great as long as no one interferes with seeing the reflected beam, but I don't know what sort of attack geometry you'd use for such a delivery. In the case of the Maverick, I think that if it could be detected and responded to in time (difficult-impossible on both counts), it would be too late to stop the freight train. Saw classified test footage of lots of different Maverick configurations during my Hughes days and recall when muzzle flash used to cause tracking gate break lock, but that was the mid 1980s and was quickly fixed. Don't know what would happen to IIR Maverick if the target turned into a fireworks show across the entire FOV at once with the missile practically on the tank (does it make the guidance system go haywire, and would it matter that late in the game?), but the laser guided Maverick would almost certainly be too close to miss the target given what I see of how Shtora works (and apparently can't vs a threat in even a modest dive profile). I take your point about aircraft delivered obscurants, and I simply don't understand why the Russians have grenades that block everything but don't put the things in base ejecting or airburst shells. The Germans have some super thick black artillery smoke they use, and I'd be willing to bet it screens a lot better than anything the US officially has.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited March 26, 2017 by John Kettler

[c3k]

Aerial delivered obscurants: you'd need to have the aircraft ready, loitering, and be able to coordinate precisely where you want it. "Comrade! When we crest THIS hill, the Americanskis will be precisely THERE. I'll need airborne fog delivered at 1034:21, from North to South. Then we'll catch them!"

Umm...if you know where the enemy is precisely enough to coordinate such a delivery method, why not just saturate them with artillery-delivered munitions/submunitions? Or, go around them?