Shoot and Scoot

[db_zero]

I've been working more than I like and been away, but I've been able to play a little lately. This may have already been asked, but I think a "shoot and scoot" option would be a great addition especially for AT teams that use bazookas, panzerfausts or for the modern AT teams that use RPGs or Javelins.

Yes you can tell them to run after they fired or give a pause, target arc and then run away command, but A shoot and scoot command where they wait, acquire a target, fire at it and then run to a fall back position would be a welcomed addition. This may be more of a WEGO thing as real time play is different. I've just experienced a lot of times where an infantry AT team fires and then sits there when I would imagine that they would be hauling ass as they would know that the act of firing an AT weapon would give away their position. When playing wego if the AT team fires at the beginning of the phase it exposed for a long time. 

It would be nice to have a shoot and scoot command where you could set it and set a fallback position. A unit given this order would hide. Once it sees a target fire at it and then immediately haul ass to the fall back position.

This could also be used for tanks and other vehicles.

I'm sure the old "Ambush" command that was present in CM1 has been discussed, Be nice to see that again.

[George MC]

You already have shoot and scoot in CM. Place fast forward waypoint to where you want to fire from - pause for 10-15s - then place a reverse waypoint back into cover. Pause depends whether your unit knows enemy there. If they know there, shorter pause, if not longer pause - 15 s is long enough though...

[sttp]

1 hour ago, George MC said:

You already have shoot and scoot in CM. Place fast forward waypoint to where you want to fire from - pause for 10-15s - then place a reverse waypoint back into cover. Pause depends whether your unit knows enemy there. If they know there, shorter pause, if not longer pause - 15 s is long enough though...

That sometimes works, yes. But I think it's pretty unreliable, overall. All sorts of things can happen which would cause an AT team, for example, to either not spot or not fire upon a tank when they're at that 'pause' waypoint. Who hasn't been in this situation: you look on in horror as the last few seconds of a pause command tick away, and your soldiers leave the perfect spot without taking the shot. Such a helpless feeling....

One thing I do during WEGO battles is try to make sure that critical events like this won't happen 'til the last 15 or 30 seconds of a turn, so you have some options for the next command phase. Sometimes that kind of intentional delaying is just not possible though....

I do like this shoot and scoot idea, and it'd be great to see it implemented. But on the other hand, I can think of some other new movement / targeting commands that I'd like to see even more.

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by sttp

[George MC]

20 minutes ago, sttp said:

One thing I do during WEGO battles is try to make sure that critical events like this won't happen 'til the last 15 or 30 seconds of a turn, so you have some options for the next command phase. Sometimes that kind of intentional delaying is just not possible though....

For sure - but then again you had the same issue with the old shoot and scoot command in CMX1 as the tank would only pause for a short while, and could (and often) pulled back without taking a shot.

The issue is though how long should the tank pause with this new command? 5s?10s? 15s? 30s? That's the point even with a "shoot and scoot" command you would still get the situation of a tank pulling back before taking the crucial shot. Or taking fore from a previously unknown enemy shooter whilst vainly trying to locate them...The whole point of shoot and scoot is getting off a snap shot (at a known enemy) before they can fire back at you...Or at least encouraging someone to break cover and take a snap shot (works well if you have others keeping an eye out in overwatch).

As you state doing all this at the end of a turn gives the player even more control. I'd add that I have used hunt command at the last 15s of a turn to get a tank into sight of a located enemy target. Then I can decide next turn how long it stays in sight engaging. In RL you'll see many training manuals talk about firing stops not lasting more than 15s as this was considred the optimal time to locate and engage before the enemy got a bead of you.

[BletchleyGeek]

3 hours ago, George MC said:

 

As you state doing all this at the end of a turn gives the player even more control. I'd add that I have used hunt command at the last 15s of a turn to get a tank into sight of a located enemy target. Then I can decide next turn how long it stays in sight engaging. In RL you'll see many training manuals talk about firing stops not lasting more than 15s as this was considred the optimal time to locate and engage before the enemy got a bead of you.

That's a pro tip - I learnt this one from Bil's AAR.

[Erwin]

My take is that db_zero is referring to AT teams, not AFC's.

I made a very similar post about the desirability of an infantry version of "Shoot 'n Scoot" for AT teams in particular.  Due to the short range of handheld AT weapons, once they shoot, they are easily spotted and killed.  It would be great to have them automatically withdraw to a desired fallback position after shooting. 

The problem with using Delays is that it is MUCH harder/ possibly impossible to judge how long it will take an AT team to acquire and shoot.

Snipers are easier to handle with simply delay commands since they should only be used at ranges over 500m and they make less smoke when firing so can stay hidden much more easily.

So, +1 for an inf AT team "Shoot 'n Scoot" command.

[Panzerpanic]

+1 for me too.

That move order would help the survabolity of my at crew and also make the one in cmbs something else than a one use kamikae team!

[db_zero]

Erwin is correct I was referring primarily to infantry AT teams with portable AT weapons.

This is applicable to not just WW2 AT teams but also to Black Sea. 

 

[tankgeezer]

Hear, Hear, Shoot & Scoot I say.  Bring it back (along with the auto-180º target arc).

[Erwin]

Thanks  for the reminder.  +1 for one-click 180 degree arc as well. 

Surely everyone has to set covered arcs all the time when moving turreted AFV's.  The old CM1 method was SO much faster (and easier).

[Pak40]

On 3/14/2017 at 3:55 AM, George MC said:

The issue is though how long should the tank pause with this new command? 5s?10s? 15s? 30s? That's the point even with a "shoot and scoot" command you would still get the situation of a tank pulling back before taking the crucial shot. Or taking fore from a previously unknown enemy shooter whilst vainly trying to locate them...The whole point of shoot and scoot is getting off a snap shot (at a known enemy) before they can fire back at you...Or at least encouraging someone to break cover and take a snap shot (works well if you have others keeping an eye out in overwatch).

The issue is that it should not be time based at all. It should be shot based. In other words the team should not scoot until it shoots. I think though that normal TacAI conditions should still apply, ie. if the unit comes under heavy fire before it's able to shoot then it should take appropriate steps to get under cover. In this case the 'shoot and scoot' command should be overridden like other movement orders would be by the TacAI.

[tankgeezer]

And; I might add, still keep the one-click 360º!

[tankgeezer]

BullsEye, Pak40!! If I remember correctly, that's exactly how it seemed to work in CMx1.

[Pak40]

Another thing to consider in the whole 'scoot and shoot' debate is that the LOS cycle is several seconds long (6 seconds IIRC but please correct me if I'm wrong). So even if Batttlefront were to implement this as a time based or shot based command, it will take longer than imagined by all of us. For example, let's say your bazooka team rounds a corner and then sees an enemy tank. In reality, the 'scoot and shoot' process is fairly simple and should happen quickly:

1) round corner

2) immediately see enemy tank and stop

3) aim

4) fire

5) scoot to safety

However, with CM, step 2 could take considerably longer depending on the LOS check cycle. They often seem to be tapping their toes while we're yelling 'shoot for Christ's sake!'

[mjkerner]

Well, as long as it was a toggle option. I can't count the number of times my schreks or bazooka men missed on the first shot, but managed to nail it on the second (if they survived long enough, lol).

[A Canadian Cat]

16 hours ago, Pak40 said:

Another thing to consider in the whole 'scoot and shoot' debate is that the LOS cycle is several seconds long (6 seconds IIRC but please correct me if I'm wrong).

It is actually variable - units in closer proximity get shorter cycles to help reduce the amount of instances where we have units tripping over the enemy.

16 hours ago, Pak40 said:

2) immediately see enemy tank and stop

LOL that first word is our perception problem. True, there are still LOS issues especially at close ranges especially with poor visibility but even in bright daylight humans do not achieve insta spotting (tm) and neither should our pixel troops. Just because your god's eye view means you know there is a tank poking out into the street 70m down the road does not mean that two guys who are totally unaware of that tank will spot it instantly when they round a corner.

Even though there are issues that could be improved upon *we* have to let go of our idea that there should be an insta spot feature in the game.

[A Canadian Cat]

Oh I should have added that I would actually like to have a shoot and scoot command that waited until the bazooka, shrek, tank fired on an acquired target before scooting. I think it would be very useful.

Oh and I would add that it would also be nice to have in the AI scripting too (I hate to add more advantages to humans and deprive the AI). That way I could create a shoot and scoot order and tie it to a trigger so that my tank hunter team would wait in cover until the enemy armour started down the street and then they would head to the building corner with a shoot and scoot order. That would be sweet.

[Pak40]

2 hours ago, IanL said:

It is actually variable - units in closer proximity get shorter cycles to help reduce the amount of instances where we have units tripping over the enemy.

That's good to know. I wonder what the smallest cycle is.

2 hours ago, IanL said:

Even though there are issues that could be improved upon *we* have to let go of our idea that there should be an insta spot feature in the game.

Yes, that's the whole purpose of my post. Hopefully, any future CMx3 engine will have much quicker spotting cycles, at least closer to what reality is. I agree that in reality there isn't insta-spotting but in the case of a bazooka team rounding a corner and seeing a huge Tiger tank in the middle of the street 40 meters away, it's pretty close to insta-spotting. At this point you're pretty much talking about human reaction times and decision making.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Pak40

[IICptMillerII]

I like the idea of a shoot and scoot command, but it is a rather niche-use command. It really only applies to AT infantry or tanks in an urban environment. I have found that at long ranges (400m+) there is generally enough time for you to set move and pause orders for tanks. In a multiplayer battle a while back, I had 4 shermans against a whole horde of PzIV's and panthers. My shermans were in a town and the enemy was advancing against the town. I was able to move my shermans in and out of keyhole firing positions by using the reverse and pause commands very effectively. I destroyed over 20 enemy tanks and lost none of my shermans. The engagement happened at ranges between 200m-600m roughly.

I could see a shoot and scoot being more useful for tank destroyers like the M10 seeing that they are essentially glass cannons. Again though I think that the commands in the game already are enough to manage most situations involving tanks, and that a shoot and scoot command would mostly benefit AT infantry. In the modern titles, it would greatly enhance the survivability of AT infantry, such as Javelin or RPG armed infantry.  Again though, the command seems to be too niche for the developers to commit to it and devote a bunch of time developing and testing it when they could be working on other things. 

As far as spotting goes, I really have never had a real problem with it in any of the CM titles. No game is perfect, and during more competitive multiplayer games it can be very frustrating to have a unit not see something that you, the player, feels he should be able to see. Most notably occurring with tank duels in my experience. But by and large, 99 out of 100 times I see CM getting it right. I am usually able to explain away the 1 time something odd happens by assuming the TC is going on his third day of no sleep, or was recently concussed, or something along those lines. A little role playing never hurt anyone 

[J Bennett]

I had an M10 in an ambush position in a certain scenario hoping for a Tiger to pass by which it did. The M10 promptly reversed and tried to pivot and move to another area (Without taking the point blank shot at the Tiger). It was like the crew's morale broke. It was a "Regular" crew. Maybe a "Veteran" or higher would have stood fast and fired. Although this was not a "shoot and scoot" I could see something similar happening. Sure was annoying.

[db_zero]

[db_zero]

22 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

I like the idea of a shoot and scoot command, but it is a rather niche-use command. It really only applies to AT infantry or tanks in an urban environment. I have found that at long ranges (400m+) there is generally enough time for you to set move and pause orders for tanks. In a multiplayer battle a while back, I had 4 shermans against a whole horde of PzIV's and panthers. My shermans were in a town and the enemy was advancing against the town. I was able to move my shermans in and out of keyhole firing positions by using the reverse and pause commands very effectively. I destroyed over 20 enemy tanks and lost none of my shermans. The engagement happened at ranges between 200m-600m roughly.

I could see a shoot and scoot being more useful for tank destroyers like the M10 seeing that they are essentially glass cannons. Again though I think that the commands in the game already are enough to manage most situations involving tanks, and that a shoot and scoot command would mostly benefit AT infantry. In the modern titles, it would greatly enhance the survivability of AT infantry, such as Javelin or RPG armed infantry.  Again though, the command seems to be too niche for the developers to commit to it and devote a bunch of time developing and testing it when they could be working on other things. 

As far as spotting goes, I really have never had a real problem with it in any of the CM titles. No game is perfect, and during more competitive multiplayer games it can be very frustrating to have a unit not see something that you, the player, feels he should be able to see. Most notably occurring with tank duels in my experience. But by and large, 99 out of 100 times I see CM getting it right. I am usually able to explain away the 1 time something odd happens by assuming the TC is going on his third day of no sleep, or was recently concussed, or something along those lines. A little role playing never hurt anyone 

It is a unit specific and niche command but it would greatly increase effectiveness of infantry AT team in an urban or any other area with clustered buildings against armored vehicles and would extract a greater punishment on a player who does not execute proper combined arms tactics in these areas. 

There was and is a reason why armored vehicles that go into built up areas without proper infantry support get handled roughly by small roving bands of tank hunting teams.

[Erwin]

On ‎3‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 8:20 AM, Pak40 said:

The issue is that it should not be time based at all. It should be shot based.

Yes, that is exactly what was meant.  Thanks for the clarification.

BTW:  I have seen AT units given nothing more than a QUICK move command, see a tank that I hadn't noticed, stop on their own AI volition, aim and fire their bazooka at the tank (and kill it) b4 resuming the original QUICK move order.  Wonderful when that happens.

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Erwin