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Cross-country capability trials Sherman vs Panther

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thanks, that was most interesting to watch! I remember from a german source, where it´s been said as rule of thump, if a combat loaden soldier can stand on a single foot and does not sink considerably, the ground would be suited for tanks. Considering the germans didn´t have that many Panthers and even more lesser well trained drivers late into the war, they´d probably not that much exploited the Panthers CC capabilities, when there´s no urgency. A stuck (or bellied up) Panther usually meant a lost Panther, particularly in forests and near the frontline, where you can´t easily get a rare Bergepanther or other heavy vehicles forward and risk loosing them as well.

Wished they´d compared with a T-34 as well, yet I guess its capabilities lay somewhere between the Sherman´s and Panther´s.

Another wish would be for the CM series to portray slopes and a units (infantry & vehicles) slope climbing ability and effects more realistically.

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In combat mission in damp or muddy terrain I travel in slow mode as this would stimulate to drive in a lower gear. I wonder or it makes any difference. I managed to clear 2 Sherman Jumbos through the edge of a  forest adjacent to the road covered by a King Tiger. It seemed to work, ground was however frozen and snowy. 

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1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

In combat mission in damp or muddy terrain I travel in slow mode as this would stimulate to drive in a lower gear. I wonder or it makes any difference.

It doesn't matter unfortunately.

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

It seemed to work, ground was however frozen and snowy. 

In CM, as soon as the temperature dips below freezing, ground is treated as being frozen solid and bogging becomes very unlikely (even when ground conditions are set to damp). It's very rare that I lose vehicles to bogging in open country in light/medium snow.

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49 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:
2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

In combat mission in damp or muddy terrain I travel in slow mode as this would stimulate to drive in a lower gear. I wonder or it makes any difference.

It doesn't matter unfortunately.

Just to be certain - this 100% confirmed?  That there is no point in changing speed to SLOW at waypoints right before crashing thru a wall/fence/bushes or entering bad terrain to help avoid track or wheel damage or bogging/immobilization?

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4 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Just to be certain - this 100% confirmed?  That there is no point in changing speed to SLOW at waypoints right before crashing thru a wall/fence/bushes or entering bad terrain to help avoid track or wheel damage or bogging/immobilization?

It's been tested by IanL, and it seems he did a very thorough test. Going SLOW through mud or forest for example won't change bogging risks.

All vehicles change to SLOW automatically before going through obstacles, so no need to do that manually.

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Thanks.  That's very helpful as I still waste a lot of time doing waypoint at different speeds depending on terrain and obstacles.  Gotta get out of the habit.

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57 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

It's been tested by IanL, and it seems he did a very thorough test. Going SLOW through mud or forest for example won't change bogging risks.

All vehicles change to SLOW automatically before going through obstacles, so no need to do that manually.

What about the soft factors (experience, leader rating) with regard to bogging chances? Me guesses they´re factored into the die roll. Think the slow down in/before obstacles is simply reflecting the resistance offered by the particular terrain and the simulated driver/commander applying proper micro navigation (around trees, fenceposts ect.). We surely have a number of threads around here already.

Edit: Disregard. It´s in V4 game manual page 47. :P

Edited by RockinHarry

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What @Bulletpoint and @RockinHarry say is correct. I would like to point out thought that there is a speed difference. If you give the same vehicle type a fast move order down a road, a fast move order over grass and a fast move order over muddy terrain they will not all travel at top speed. So, while *you* issuing a slow move order will not change the bogging chances the driver is already choosing to go slower over difficult terrain. I have not tested how fine grained this is modelled but there is a difference that the game is automatically applying.

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The point for us gamers though is that there is no point wasting time setting extra waypoints to vary the speed when traversing obstacles or bad terrain. 

The probability of damage or bogging is the same regardless what speed the vehicle is ordered to move at cos the AI will automatically slow the vehicle to a "sensible" speed.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, IanL said:

What @Bulletpoint and @RockinHarry say is correct. I would like to point out thought that there is a speed difference. If you give the same vehicle type a fast move order down a road, a fast move order over grass and a fast move order over muddy terrain they will not all travel at top speed. So, while *you* issuing a slow move order will not change the bogging chances the driver is already choosing to go slower over difficult terrain. I have not tested how fine grained this is modelled but there is a difference that the game is automatically applying.

All vehicle stats like Weight, Speed, Power-to-weight ratio, Offroad and Turning ability are surely factored in dynamically (sort of physics modelling). In a running game with @Heirloom_Tomato I i.e figured german HTs a PITA to maneuver due to the very limited turning ability. :P

Edited by RockinHarry

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I haven't done systematic testing, but when my vehicles bog, a trick I do that seems to help is to issue a timed pause followed by slow forward or reverse.

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4 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

All vehicle stats like Weight, Speed, Power-to-weight ratio, Offroad and Turning ability are surely factored in dynamically (sort of physics modelling). In a running game with @Heirloom_Tomato I i.e figured german HTs a PITA to maneuver due to the very limited turning ability. :P

Yes, those properties are modelled.

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51 minutes ago, Macisle said:

I haven't done systematic testing, but when my vehicles bog, a trick I do that seems to help is to issue a timed pause followed by slow forward or reverse.

I have often wondered about that but also have never tested it. Perhaps this discussion will inspire someone...

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similar, WHEN BOGGING. I ALWAYS STOP , THEN DO A REVERSE OR CHANGE OF DIRECTION.

Feeling that it helps from getting immobilized. But never ran test to verify that it truly helps.

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I´d rather think this is sort of an illusion. I´d be surprised if anything else but crew quality, vehicle properties and a simple die roll for unbogging would be involved.

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1 hour ago, IanL said:
2 hours ago, Macisle said:

I haven't done systematic testing, but when my vehicles bog, a trick I do that seems to help is to issue a timed pause followed by slow forward or reverse.

I have often wondered about that but also have never tested it. Perhaps this discussion will inspire someone...

It's one of those "Skinner Box" things that comes up regularly. For all it's worth, I never do anything special to bogged vehicles, I just leave them to it and 90 pct of the times they free themselves just fine.

12 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

No idea if it actually makes any difference, don't care either TBH, it makes me feel better.  ;)

That's of course a perfect argument :)

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1 minute ago, Bulletpoint said:

It's one of those "Skinner Box" things that comes up regularly. For all it's worth, I never do anything special to bogged vehicles, I just leave them to it and 90 pct of the times they free themselves just fine.

I do the same actually. More concerned with how to untangle the mess if a bogged vehicle is in the midst of a moving column or dealing with threats for this sitting duck.

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The techniques for unbogging have been talked about ever since CMSF1 came out in 2007.  At the time, BF definitely stated that there is nothing a player can do to aid in unbogging.  ie:  It's all in the mind.  So, unless this has changed via engine updates...

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7 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Me too.....No idea if it actually makes any difference, don't care either TBH, it makes me feel better.  ;)

 

Yeah, same here. I'm sticking with it, even if it doesn't actually do anything. It makes me feel better and heightens the immersion for me.

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21 hours ago, Macisle said:

I haven't done systematic testing, but when my vehicles bog, a trick I do that seems to help is to issue a timed pause followed by slow forward or reverse.

Exactly. I -think- a non-movement period (an entire turn is what I use) reduces the chances of a Bog turning into Immobilized.

I have not tested, but it certainly seems to behave that way.

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I have no idea whether it is observational bias—it probably is because  I too recall BFC’s saying it makes no difference what we mortals do—I agree that it sure seems to help pausing/slow moving.

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