BF's Line in the Sand (or, things you'll likely never see in CM)

[BlackMoria]

5 hours ago, Jock Tamson said:

Hopefully one day he'll realise what a cul de sac it is and divert the resources elsewhere.

No.  Just No.

I am a real time player only.   Maybe I will get on board with "WEGO only" the day the micro AI stops doing stupid things with my troops when executing orders but we are not there yet.    RT allows me greater fidelity of control over my troops and allows me to intervene in correcting the occasional boner the micro AI tries to pull.  So, No.

[Codename Duchess]

20 minutes ago, BlackMoria said:

No.  Just No.

I am a real time player only.   Maybe I will get on board with "WEGO only" the day the micro AI stops doing stupid things with my troops when executing orders but we are not there yet.    RT allows me greater fidelity of control over my troops and allows me to intervene in correcting the occasional boner the micro AI tries to pull.  So, No.

Agree. WEGO is fine for multi-player. But leave me my RT for single player.

[HerrTom]

What about fragmentation simulation? Probably never due to the computation needed to add hundreds of projectiles for am explosion. A man can dream though...

 

[luigim]

WEGO is way better for complex planning of many units. Plus, you can watch the show many and many times.. It's like a good glass of wine vs a strong beer (RT)

[Codename Duchess]

You can pause RT.  You can't pause a WEGO turn when TAC AI fudges something up.  I treat RT as WEGO with flexible turn timing.  It's still totally possible to command large formations in RT if you choose to and play in that method.  Hell it's preferred because of the ability to pause.

The point is everyone has a preference, but there's no reason to remove one or the other.  I doubt that processing power is the limiting factor in the AI, and I doubt that removing RT would give an appreciable benefit.  I for one would likely not buy future Combat Mission games without Real Time.

[Michael Emrys]

2 minutes ago, Codename Duchess said:

You can pause RT.  You can't pause a WEGO turn when TAC AI fudges something up.  I treat RT as WEGO with flexible turn timing.  It's still totally possible to command large formations in RT if you choose to and play in that method.

Mostly true. One problem is that if you are paying attention to one area of the map, you are apt to miss something going on elsewhere. With WEGO, I can observe each part of the battle as closely and as many times as I wish. In doing that, I can then give orders to respond to new situations or to proceed as planned. No doubt both methods have strengths and weaknesses and neither is perfect. I wouldn't want to see RT deleted even though I don't use it.

Michael

[sburke]

I think you guys are arguing over nothing.  My understanding (and I could be totally wrong) is wego and RT are intertwined. You can't have wego without the game running RT in increments. The wego folks just forego our ability to issue commands for a minute and in return we get unlimited playback.

 

Steve is not a big fan of zero sum arguments ? 

Edited February 1, 2017 by sburke

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, sburke said:

"I think you guys are arguing over nothing.  .... The wego folks just forego our ability to issue commands for a minute and in return we get unlimited playback."

Wouldn't call that nothing.  The ability to change all orders for units everywhere on the map instantly every second if you want vs every minute makes a HUGE difference that makes RT and WEGO a considerably different play experience.    (Also, RT makes it MUCH harder to play large scenarios.)

 

 

[sburke]

You missed my point.  I never said there wasn't a difference.  What I said was you can't have one without the other.  Therefore the argument that they could get rid of RT is senseless.  There would be no CM then at all.

[Michael Emrys]

19 hours ago, Erwin said:

The ability to change all orders for units everywhere on the map instantly every second if you want...

Except that I find I can only give orders to one unit at a time while losing track of what is going on on the rest of the map. I know you say you can pause the game at any point and cruise around the map giving orders as I go, but in my case that would mean doing that, allowing the game to proceed for a few seconds, and then pausing it again. In other words, to get through a couple of minutes of game time would entail a whole afternoon of play time. CM is in WEGO already a micro-managerial nightmare, I don't need to make it any worse.

Again, don't get me wrong. I am not opposed to RT being available to those who like it. I'm just not sold on its virtues.

Michael

[Jock Tamson]

On 2/1/2017 at 10:21 PM, sburke said:

I think you guys are arguing over nothing.  My understanding (and I could be totally wrong) is wego and RT are intertwined. You can't have wego without the game running RT in increments. The wego folks just forego our ability to issue commands for a minute and in return we get unlimited playback.

 

Steve is not a big fan of zero sum arguments ? 

I appreciate the relation between RT and WEGO in the current engine.  But this discussion is not limited to the current engine.

The point I am making is that the game is already CPU bound because it is largely single threaded.  Unless they completely rework the engine to use greater multi threading - a lot of work and difficult to predict benefits - the amount of processing available for this engine or the next is going to be limited to that one thread and core.

There is a limit to what can be going on in that thread whilst maintaining the sort of frame rates that RT needs in order to be playable.

If RT is dropped, frame rates become much less of an issue.  If frame rates are less of an issue, more computation can be done in the thread = more features.  I am sure, for example, that most WEGO players would wait a little longer for turn resolution if it allowed the AI to have more processing resource, for example to move away from scripted plans to something a bit more dynamic.

I have played a lot of RT, but I would rather have a better, less predictable, game against the AI and only have WEGO.  

Edited February 3, 2017 by Jock Tamson

[sburke]

16 hours ago, Jock Tamson said:

I appreciate the relation between RT and WEGO in the current engine.  But this discussion is not limited to the current engine.

The point I am making is that the game is already CPU bound because it is largely single threaded.  Unless they completely rework the engine to use greater multi threading - a lot of work and difficult to predict benefits - the amount of processing available for this engine or the next is going to be limited to that one thread and core.

There is a limit to what can be going on in that thread whilst maintaining the sort of frame rates that RT needs in order to be playable.

If RT is dropped, frame rates become much less of an issue.  If frame rates are less of an issue, more computation can be done in the thread = more features.  I am sure, for example, that most WEGO players would wait a little longer for turn resolution if it allowed the AI to have more processing resource, for example to move away from scripted plans to something a bit more dynamic.

I have played a lot of RT, but I would rather have a better, less predictable, game against the AI and only have WEGO.  

All I can say is as far as I understand it you can't drop RT and still have CM. More than that Steve would have to say. 

[Chudacabra]

I have to wonder if we'll ever see a return to multiplayer campaigns.

[A Canadian Cat]

1 minute ago, Chudacabra said:

I have to wonder if we'll ever see a return to multiplayer campaigns.

Oh I really hope so.

[J Bennett]

 I think the game should always have either WEGO or RT.  I almost always play wego, because I am just not good enough at handling my units in RT. I admire players that can though. I can do ok with RT in small scenarios (fewer units to give orders to)

 Jeff

[exsonic01]

Dedicated multiplayer sever with lobby? Slitherine / Matrix games have PBEM++ server, which enables the PBEM without dropbox or email. I'm enjoying FPC-RS with PBEM++ as well. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[agusto]

On 31.1.2017 at 6:45 PM, Lethaface said:

Real danger and the results onto ones mind.

Guess that the concern for ones (subordinates) health is the biggest factor in how military operations are commanded in RL versus in CM.

Letter home in RL:

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically in combat. He singlehandedly took out an enemy pillbox while throwing himself onto an enemy handgrenade, saving the lives of many of his comrades in the process. He is awarded...bla bla bla"

In CM:

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically, together with the rest of his platoon, when his commander forgot that he had ordered an artillery strike on the building your sons platoon was ordered to occupy."

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically when his commander, a highly qualified soldier with 30 minutes of virtual military training, ordered him to charge through the killzone of the machine gun that had already killed the rest of your sons platoon."

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically, together with the rest of his platoon, when his commander forgot that the enemy IFVs thermal sights can spot him through the smoke."

"Dear  Mrs,

your son died heroically when his commander wanted to see if he can run faster than that enemy tank can turn his turret. Obviously, your son failed at his task, but nonetheless his death was judged as very entertaining by those who witnessed it."

"Dear Mrs,

your son bled to death heroically, together with the rest of the wounded soldiers of his platoon, because his commander thinks that buddy aid is a waste of time and too much micromanagement."

Edited February 15, 2017 by agusto

[Ithikial_AU]

41 minutes ago, agusto said:

Letter home in RL:

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically in combat. He singlehandedly took out an enemy pillbox while throwing himself onto an enemy handgrenade, saving the lives of many of his comrades in the process. He is awarded...bla bla bla"

In CM:

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically, together with the rest of his platoon, when his commander forgot that he had ordered an artillery strike on the building your sons platoon was ordered to occupy."

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically when his commander, a highly qualified soldier with 30 minutes of virtual military training, ordered him to charge through the killzone of the machine gun that had already killed the rest of your sons platoon."

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically, together with the rest of his platoon, when his commander forgot that the enemy IFVs thermal sights can spot him through the smoke."

"Dear  Mrs,

your son died heroically when his commander wanted to see if he can run faster than that enemy tank can turn his turret. Obviously, your son failed at his task, but nonetheless his death was judged as very entertaining by those who witnessed it."

"Dear Mrs,

your son bled to death heroically, together with the rest of the wounded soldiers of his platoon, because his commander thinks that buddy aid is a waste of time and too much micromanagement."

I shouldn't laugh but those pixeltruppen examples... I've got tears. Well done! We honestly need a pixeltruppen rememberence day.

 

[Michael Emrys]

2 hours ago, Ithikial_AU said:

We honestly need a pixeltruppen rememberence day.

We could also use drumhead courts martial for incompetent virtual commanders. If found guilty, your copy of whatever CM won't play. This decision is accompanied by the sound of a firing squad.

Michael

[Sgt.Squarehead]

The guys I feel sorry for are the ones controlled by the AI, especially if they are attacking even moderately prepared player controlled positions.....Oh the horror of it all! 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Michael Emrys]

3 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

The guys I feel sorry for are the ones controlled by the AI, especially if they are attacking even moderately prepared player controlled positions.....Oh the horror of it all! 

I love to mow 'em down! I have even been known to employ multiple batteries of rockets to exterminate entire companies of infantry. It was for their own good.

Michael

[sburke]

11 hours ago, agusto said:

Letter home in RL:

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically in combat. He singlehandedly took out an enemy pillbox while throwing himself onto an enemy handgrenade, saving the lives of many of his comrades in the process. He is awarded...bla bla bla"

In CM:

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically, together with the rest of his platoon, when his commander forgot that he had ordered an artillery strike on the building your sons platoon was ordered to occupy."

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically when his commander, a highly qualified soldier with 30 minutes of virtual military training, ordered him to charge through the killzone of the machine gun that had already killed the rest of your sons platoon."

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically, together with the rest of his platoon, when his commander forgot that the enemy IFVs thermal sights can spot him through the smoke."

"Dear  Mrs,

your son died heroically when his commander wanted to see if he can run faster than that enemy tank can turn his turret. Obviously, your son failed at his task, but nonetheless his death was judged as very entertaining by those who witnessed it."

"Dear Mrs,

your son bled to death heroically, together with the rest of the wounded soldiers of his platoon, because his commander thinks that buddy aid is a waste of time and too much micromanagement."

That was perfect. Freakin hysterical.  More!

[c3k]

13 hours ago, agusto said:

Letter home in RL:

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically in combat. He singlehandedly took out an enemy pillbox while throwing himself onto an enemy handgrenade, saving the lives of many of his comrades in the process. He is awarded...bla bla bla"

In CM:

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically, together with the rest of his platoon, when his commander forgot that he had ordered an artillery strike on the building your sons platoon was ordered to occupy."

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically when his commander, a highly qualified soldier with 30 minutes of virtual military training, ordered him to charge through the killzone of the machine gun that had already killed the rest of your sons platoon."

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically, together with the rest of his platoon, when his commander forgot that the enemy IFVs thermal sights can spot him through the smoke."

"Dear  Mrs,

your son died heroically when his commander wanted to see if he can run faster than that enemy tank can turn his turret. Obviously, your son failed at his task, but nonetheless his death was judged as very entertaining by those who witnessed it."

"Dear Mrs,

your son bled to death heroically, together with the rest of the wounded soldiers of his platoon, because his commander thinks that buddy aid is a waste of time and too much micromanagement."

I feel as if you've been secretly watching how I play...

[Lethaface]

17 hours ago, agusto said:

Letter home in RL:

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically in combat. He singlehandedly took out an enemy pillbox while throwing himself onto an enemy handgrenade, saving the lives of many of his comrades in the process. He is awarded...bla bla bla"

In CM:

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically, together with the rest of his platoon, when his commander forgot that he had ordered an artillery strike on the building your sons platoon was ordered to occupy."

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically when his commander, a highly qualified soldier with 30 minutes of virtual military training, ordered him to charge through the killzone of the machine gun that had already killed the rest of your sons platoon."

"Dear Mrs,

your son died heroically, together with the rest of his platoon, when his commander forgot that the enemy IFVs thermal sights can spot him through the smoke."

"Dear  Mrs,

your son died heroically when his commander wanted to see if he can run faster than that enemy tank can turn his turret. Obviously, your son failed at his task, but nonetheless his death was judged as very entertaining by those who witnessed it."

"Dear Mrs,

your son bled to death heroically, together with the rest of the wounded soldiers of his platoon, because his commander thinks that buddy aid is a waste of time and too much micromanagement."

Great illustrations!

I thought that 'bleeding to death heroically' was a particularly nice find. Do you work in PR? ;-)