Tanks and C2

[axxe]

Trying to understand tanks and maintaining C2.

In the following two pictures both tanks' HQ is another tank on the other side of the map (far away). Why does the tank on the right have a connection to the platoon HQ but the tank on the left not?  Only thing I could come up with is the unconnected tank is both lacking a radio operator AND unbuttoned.  But I found another tank in the same scenario with no radio operator and the hatches open and that one has C2.

I am trying to diagnose some issues with my tanks not necessarily following their driving instructions.  Not sure if it's a C2 issue, an enemy fire issue, or a friendly fire issue (they were operating in the midst of a friendly mortar barrage ).

[akd]

Which scenario is this?

[Bulletpoint]

Sometimes, radio contact just breaks, then comes back a bit later. I think it's to simulate unreliable WW2 era radios.

[c3k]

That tank is missing his radio operator. Open crew bubble near the silhouette, plus the listed members are "Gunner", "Loader", "Commander", and "Driver". No wonder he's out of comms at the moment. I'd think that once he stops, another crew member (Driver?) may take over the radio functions. Or, I'm totally wrong.

Edited January 26, 2017 by c3k

[axxe]

3 hours ago, akd said:

Which scenario is this?

Link-Up

[axxe]

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Sometimes, radio contact just breaks, then comes back a bit later. I think it's to simulate unreliable WW2 era radios.

Yes, if that's the case then no worries.

[axxe]

1 hour ago, c3k said:

That tank is missing his radio operator. Open crew bubble near the silhouette, plus the listed members are "Gunner", "Loader", "Commander", and "Driver". No wonder he's out of comms at the moment. I'd think that once he stops, another crew member (Driver?) may take over the radio functions. Or, I'm totally wrong.

I suppose that's possible.  Though I doubt it's the driver.  Could he reach the radio stuff from his seat?  Since the buttoned tank is the connected one, maybe it's the commander.  Where for the un-connected one the commander is up looking around?

[c3k]

There's a LOT of detail going on under the hood. Watch what that tank does when it stops. That may unravel some of the mystery. (The radio operator sat across the transmission from the driver.)

[axxe]

2 minutes ago, c3k said:

There's a LOT of detail going on under the hood. Watch what that tank does when it stops. That may unravel some of the mystery. (The radio operator sat across the transmission from the driver.)

Ah ok, driver maybe it is then!

[MOS:96B2P]

4 hours ago, axxe said:

Trying to understand tanks and maintaining C2.

In the following two pictures both tanks' HQ is another tank on the other side of the map (far away). Why does the tank on the right have a connection to the platoon HQ but the tank on the left not?  Only thing I could come up with is the unconnected tank is both lacking a radio operator AND unbuttoned.  But I found another tank in the same scenario with no radio operator and the hatches open and that one has C2.

I am trying to diagnose some issues with my tanks not necessarily following their driving instructions.  Not sure if it's a C2 issue, an enemy fire issue, or a friendly fire issue (they were operating in the midst of a friendly mortar barrage ).

If by not following their driving instructions you mean not following their plotted waypoints, I don't think that is C2 related.  Maybe AI self preservation or the terrain combined with the distance between waypoints.    

I have seen that when the radio operator location is not manned the tank is out of C2.  If it is a platoon HQ tank with no radio operator the entire platoon can be out of C2 since the chain of command is broken.  So no radio operator then no radio C2.  This sounds right.

What I am unsure of and don't have enough information for is when you said there was a different tank in the same scenario with no radio operator, hatches open and that tank had C2.  What type of C2 does that tank have?  Is it radio C2 or visual C2? 

[axxe]

7 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

What I am unsure of and don't have enough information for is when you said there was a different tank in the same scenario with no radio operator, hatches open and that tank had C2.  What type of C2 does that tank have?  Is it radio C2 or visual C2? 

Did some experiments with two other tanks in the scenario that have no radio operator. Both of them happily retain radio C2 over a long distance whether the hatch is closed or not, and whether driving or not, though I didn't test while under fire.  So... unreliable radios?

[MOS:96B2P]

3 minutes ago, axxe said:

Did some experiments with two other tanks in the scenario that have no radio operator. Both of them happily retain radio C2 over a long distance whether the hatch is closed or not, and whether driving or not, though I didn't test while under fire.  So... unreliable radios?

Hmmm, I wonder if it depends on the type of vehicle and how the communications are set up in the vehicle.  I just took some volunteers and did an experiment.  The unbuttoned TC on an M4 Sherman was KIA.  The radio operator "moved" to the TC spot.  (His status actually reported him moving inside the tank)  Radio C2 was maintained.  This was on an M4 Sherman where the TC position I think has radio communications.  So in your situation maybe unreliable radio??  Not sure.  This has my Interesting now.  Off to do some experimenting..................  

[A Canadian Cat]

17 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

This has my Interesting now.  Off to do some experimenting..................  

Excellent, the C2 king to the rescue.

[Bulletpoint]

7 hours ago, axxe said:

So... unreliable radios?

I believe so. I've also seen the same happen with infantry that should be in C2, they are stationary, in good morale state, healthy and happy, all radio operators full fat and in good point.. but radio contact will sometimes just be lost. I think it's part of the game design.

[Michael Emrys]

Am I the only one who noticed that both tanks are showing four man crews in the GUI? In fact, IIRC this is a standard feature of the GUI for some reason. It has puzzled me ever since BN came out and—while I haven't checked recently, it may be a feature of all the WW II titles.

In any event, I've noticed that units can go in and out of contact during the course of a fight, even in BS where they are supposed to have super-duper comms, and the scenario lists no EW.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

35 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I think it's part of the game design.

Yes. ISTR that BFC has even stated as much.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

3 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

In fact, IIRC this is a standard feature of the GUI for some reason. It has puzzled me ever since BN came out and—while I haven't checked recently, it may be a feature of all the WW II titles.

Okay, I just did some checking and found that I had misspoken. The GUI does show five crew members for the Sherman, but the radio operator/co-driver/bow gunner is never named. The same is true for the M5; it correctly shows a four man crew but again the bow gunner is not named. I haven't gotten around to checking other tanks and nationalities, but this may be a universal flaw. I have wondered at this and speculated that the reason is that the name of that crew member is just too long to fit into the space available in the GUI.

This brings us to the current case. I notice in the pics provided that in both tanks there is an empty seat. It isn't showing a wounded marker, it's just empty, which is peculiar. If this is a ready-made scenario, is it possible that the designer had those tanks start with depleted crews?

Michael

[axxe]

3 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

Okay, I just did some checking and found that I had misspoken. The GUI does show five crew members for the Sherman, but the radio operator/co-driver/bow gunner is never named. The same is true for the M5; it correctly shows a four man crew but again the bow gunner is not named. I haven't gotten around to checking other tanks and nationalities, but this may be a universal flaw. I have wondered at this and speculated that the reason is that the name of that crew member is just too long to fit into the space available in the GUI.

This brings us to the current case. I notice in the pics provided that in both tanks there is an empty seat. It isn't showing a wounded marker, it's just empty, which is peculiar. If this is a ready-made scenario, is it possible that the designer had those tanks start with depleted crews?

Michael

This is helpful - I've always been confused by the (sometimes) apparently-extra unassigned weapon in the crew list!

Below are both tanks at the start of the scenario. Tankersley did indeed start with only 4 crew, but Caldwell started with 5. Caldwell must have lost his commander at some point in the battle. Let me go look at my game saves see if I can tell what happened.

[axxe]

So... apparently I've reached my upload limit for this thread...?  I can't attach the Caldwell pic.

This edit window say "Max total size 0.32MB" for attachments and the Caldwell pic is only 180kb but when I try to attach it I get "You are only allowed to upload 320kb".

Do I need more seniority/posts to be allowed to upload more?

[axxe]

Ok, my mistake, there are two Caldwell tanks in this scenario!

Both of the tanks I showed at the start of this thread did indeed start the scenario with only 4 crew.

 

[Michael Emrys]

8 minutes ago, axxe said:

...there are two Caldwell tanks in this scenario!

Probably cousins.

Michael

[A Canadian Cat]

6 hours ago, axxe said:

This edit window say "Max total size 0.32MB" for attachments and the Caldwell pic is only 180kb but when I try to attach it I get "You are only allowed to upload 320kb".

Do I need more seniority/posts to be allowed to upload more?

I'm not sure how that works but many people who post a lot of pictures host those pictures on another site such as photobucket. Takes care of that problem.

[axxe]

Roger that.  Here, as a test, is the other Caldwell.