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Turkish Leo2 tanks struggle in the Syria

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2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

ISIS footage of fighting against the Turks

Other than recycled footage that has already been posted in this thread, all identifiable ISIS targets in the video are FSA. I could not positively ID the target of the BMP attack, but the vehicles were not dispersed as normally practised by Turkish forces operating in Syria. Turkey has leased the FSA a number of APCs and trucks, which are still painted in the original Turkish camo of Dark Yellow / Olive Drab.

2 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Those prisoners seemed pretty complacent and didn't look beaten up.

This is the infamous 'Turkish soldier burning' video, which ISIS released on December 23 following the heavy Turkish artillery and aerial bombardment of Al Bab on December 22, which was in response to the losses ISIS inflicted on the Turkish forces on Aqil Hill on December 21. Even though ISIS presented it as an act of revenge, the video was certainly filmed earlier as there is no snow on the ground. The ISIS fighter speaking Turkish in the video is a known Turkish national who has joined the organization. The Turkish military has rejected the claim that the two individuals who were burned alive were its members; one of them has subsequently been identified by Turkish intelligence as a missing Turkish national who was suspected of having joined ISIS. The two are wearing Turkish army battledress, which is freely sold commercially, but otherwise lack all unit and rank insignia; notably, the 'NCO' claims to belong to the gendarme, not the army as his 'uniform' suggests. The two men's self-introductions as supposed Turkish soldiers lack the usual jargon, and they do not identify their units.

As indicated by BBC's piece on ISIS's grooming and brainwashing of children that I had posted in the general discussion forum [reposting here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/an_education_in_terror ], nothing is too low for this organization, and there is a hierarchy between their members in terms of the real bosses versus those who are meant to be wasted. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if those two men joined ISIS and were tricked to take part in the video thinking it would only be roleplay.

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YPJ (Kurdish women fighters) hit Turkish Leopard near Shayh Khuruz. Possibly AT-4C ("Konkurs") was used - on the videos of other ATGM attacks exactly the same ATGM presents.

DVIZfX2X4AARtga.jpg

DVIZfX2X4AIYlnP.jpg

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Sucks to see the soldiers of a NATO ally being blasted by probably the only truly progressive group in the mess of Syria.  Erdogan is making sure he deserves a special place in hell.

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The missile has been confirmed as a Konkurs (AT-5):

Five tankers - including a lieutenant - were KIA. Does a LEO2 have space for five people inside?:

Presumably the destroyed LEO2, with a crewman who was KIA. I assume he was the loader, as he held the lowest rank:

DVIq_VRXkAE-zrl.jpg:large

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1 hour ago, Thewood1 said:

Something else got set off there as well.

I think it touched the ammo off instantly, thus shredding the fuel tanks.....Horrible, but at least it was quick.  :(

1 hour ago, sburke said:

Sucks to see the soldiers of a NATO ally being blasted by probably the only truly progressive group in the mess of Syria.  Erdogan is making sure he deserves a special place in hell.

This whole bloody mess got dumped on his doorstep, so being essentially a massive opportunist, he's jumped enthusiastically from camp to camp ever since.

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48 minutes ago, Machor said:

Does a LEO2 have space for five people inside?

Not that I'm aware of, but that was one hell of a blast.....Burning tank rounds are flying all over the place!  :o

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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5 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I think it touched the ammo off instantly, thus shredding the fuel tanks.....Horrible, but at least it was quick.  :(

This whole bloody mess got dumped on his doorstep, so being essentially a massive opportunist, he's jumped enthusiastically from camp to camp ever since.

 

dumped on his doorstep is a bit too generous for the role he has played in contributing to the mess.

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Not sure he's one of the original instigators, but I don't disagree with your general proposition, or your specific one:

1 hour ago, sburke said:

Erdogan is making sure he deserves a special place in hell.

He'll have a lot of company before this thing's settled.  ;)

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I have seen videos of tanks have their ammo catastrophically explode.  It tends to look slower and a lot less orange.  I think there must have been a fuel truck or something nearby.  It looks too much like a Hollywood explosion.

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29 minutes ago, Thewood1 said:

I have seen videos of tanks have their ammo catastrophically explode.  It tends to look slower and a lot less orange.  I think there must have been a fuel truck or something nearby.  It looks too much like a Hollywood explosion.

 

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20 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Not that I'm aware of

My thoughts as well. The tank does not appear to have been in combat when the missile was fired; I think the YPG team may have infiltrated what was thought to be a secure area, or blended in with the civilians there. Also note the (white?) civilian car that was parked next to the tank, and sped away right after missile launch - proof that they detected the launch.

In related news, the FSA intercepted a large shipment of ATGMs, including Konkurs, to the YPG, that originated from a town under Al Nusra control. The Syrian conflict's mess of disparate interests, loyalties, and alliances is certainly up there with the 30 Years War:

 

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In Leopard 2, unlike in Abrams the ammo is stored in the hull. From the side Leo 2 is almost as vulnerable as Leopard 1. Here goes the myth of an invincible German tank ;)

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On ‎2018‎-‎02‎-‎04 at 9:49 PM, Ivanov said:

In Leopard 2, unlike in Abrams the ammo is stored in the hull. From the side Leo 2 is almost as vulnerable as Leopard 1. Here goes the myth of an invincible German tank ;)

The ready to use ammo is stored in the turret bustle whith blowoutpanels, in the Leo 2. And the rest of the ammo is in an amunition bunker, in the front left side of the hull. The amunition bunker is well protected from hot splinters from a penetration. But from a hit from the side, as this probably is. This 30 year old German tank was penetrated, in the side, and most probably the amunitionsbunker too. Now the At-5 Spandrel is not the most potent missile out there, and it is 30 years old too. And a hit to the front of the old Leo, most probably would not have penetrated.

A hit to the side, in an 90 degree angle. I belive even the AT-5 Spandrel will penetrate every tank out there. So the Turkish tactic, in their way of using their tanks. Might be of some questioning? Not the first time a Turkish Leo 2A4 got a hit from the side, and brewed up.

Edited by Armorgunner

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On 3/2/2018 at 11:20 PM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I think it touched the ammo off instantly, thus shredding the fuel tanks.....Horrible, but at least it was quick.  :(

This whole bloody mess got dumped on his doorstep, so being essentially a massive opportunist, he's jumped enthusiastically from camp to camp ever since.

14XU5bz.jpg

Not that I'm aware of, but that was one hell of a blast.....Burning tank rounds are flying all over the place!  :o

Nice post!
The mad sultan, erDOGan, overstepped this time.
Also, people seem to have conveniently forgotten that Turkey actively bought oil from ISIS in return for weapons and medical care. M72 LAWs of Turkish origin have been documented amongst ISIS rats on numerous occasions. 
Turkey's membership of NATO is about as obsolete as NATO itself. 

Edited by AtheistDane

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On 4.02.2018 at 2:25 PM, Thewood1 said:

I have seen videos of tanks have their ammo catastrophically explode.  It tends to look slower and a lot less orange.  I think there must have been a fuel truck or something nearby.  It looks too much like a Hollywood explosion.

Usually ammo explosion is caused by accelerating rapid burning of propellant charges in confined space and is indeed much slower. But sometimes the explosion is instant and powerfull -  like here  (I've seen some similar ones before).

I guess such quick and powerfull explosion is caused by _detonation_ of 120mm HE or HEAT warhead which causes further _detonations_ of other warheads and/or propellant charges (which can detonate too in specific conditions). Detonation is very different process than rapid burning, happens almost instantly and causes astronomical overpressue values, even in unconfined spaces. Such force can easily shred a tank to pieces, even if it has all hatches open.

Not every exposion is caused by detonation of high explosive. It could be also very rapid burning of several propellant charges at once triggered by HEAT jet, causing so rapid and great overpressure inside the tank, that hull sides were torn off before the turret flew away. Very rapid burning of several propellant charges at once could look very similar, hard to tell for sure what happened.

One thing to note - If such powerfull explosion (caused by cumulative jet detonating one of HE or HEAT warheads) happened after hit into the turret bustle magazine,  the armored wall between ammo and crew compartment would probably be not enough to save the crew... I know there is work on insensitive munitions going on - the propellant charges are harder to ignite and harder/impossible to detonate, high explosives  and primers/caps are less sensitive to overheating in case of fire, but I doubt that HE used are insensitive enough, to not detonate if penetrated by cumulative jet.... anybody knows if such insensitive high explosives (not triggered by direct cumulative jet hit) are used in tank rounds ?

edit: I checked internet and it seems that insensitive explosives can be _to some extend_ resistant to penetration by shaped charge jet. Especially by smaller ones. Greater the energy (mass, velocity) of the jet, smaller the chances that the explosive will not be triggered.  I think there is little chance that typical tank round's warhead will not detonate when hit directly by  jet from powerfull ATGM warhead. Second thing to consider - if the rounds used by Turkish military in their Leo2s use modern, insensitive high explosives / propellants at all. 

 

Edited by Amizaur

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On 2/3/2018 at 4:01 PM, sburke said:

Sucks to see the soldiers of a NATO ally being blasted by probably the only truly progressive group in the mess of Syria.

I have no intention to take the thread OT; just a footnote to "the only truly progressive group:"

For a scholarly take on the YPG, see the second half of "Twilight of the Kurds:" http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/01/16/twilight-of-the-kurds-iraq-syria-kurdistan/

 

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17 minutes ago, Machor said:

I have no intention to take the thread OT; just a footnote to "the only truly progressive group:"

For a scholarly take on the YPG, see the second half of "Twilight of the Kurds:" http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/01/16/twilight-of-the-kurds-iraq-syria-kurdistan/

 

Maybe I should have caveated with “relatively”. 😁

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