Small Arms NOT Reloading Between Engagements

[WynnterGreen]

For a while I've been noticing while mirco-managing between turns that quite often my infantry start reloading at infuriating times during a firefight.

 

Instead of reloading during periods of rest, they sit with their clips depleted to just a few rounds.

Then, when the S*#T hits the fan, they pop off the remaining rounds before beginning the reloading procedure during the middle of the engagement.

 

I put it to the test with US BAR units, depleted to just the single Automatic Rifleman.

I had them fire 'Target Briefly' at an area to substantially deplete their clips.

I then rested them for ten to fifteen minutes.

After the rest period I then 'Targeted Briefly' again. They fire off the last two or three rounds in their clip then start reloading.

 

UNITS SHOULD BE RELOADING BETWEEN ENGAGEMENTS, not just waiting until their clips are depleted.

In my opinion this is quite an oversight.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by WynnterGreen

[ASL Veteran]

Well this isn't necessarily as simple or obvious as I think you may be envisioning things.  For one thing weapons don't necessarily have a ammo 'counter' on them in real life so the soldier may not know how many rounds are left in the clip or mag until the last round is fired.  For another most, if not all, ammunition that is going to be carried by soldiers will either already be contained within magazines or within strip clips.  Most guys probably won't be carrying around 'loose' ammunition, although I suppose it might be possible.  The time a soldier would be topping off magazines would be prior to contact with the enemy when the supply truck is nearby.  For a bolt action rifle that uses stripper clips I think it would just be silly to remove individual rounds of ammunition from one clip to add to a rifle when reloading is such a simple process.  Just jam the strip into the top of the rifle, use your thumb to ram down the rounds into the rifle and pop the empty strip off when you push the bolt forward.  It would probably take just as long to top off as it would to load a fresh strip.  For a box magazine like the BAR I don't think there is a way to know how much is left in the magazine without physically removing it and examining it - and even then with the rounds stacked on top of each other it might not be obvious - I don't know.  Once again though - if the soldier isn't normally carrying around 'loose' rounds of ammo (somewhere - I guess in his pockets or something since most ammo carrying pouches are purpose designed to carry mags or clips) then you would be removing ammo from one magazine to put into another. 

[WynnterGreen]

Oh' come on...... this is absurd.

What possible argument is there for sitting around with the last two rounds in your assault rifles magazine (Accept for, 'these are the last two rounds you have') in lulls between firefights?

Time to prepare, IS TIME TO PREPARE.

 

At the moment the Combat Mission AI situation is: 

Fire off some rounds at an area target, sit around for ten minutes with the last 3 rounds in your magazine, make the assault with the 3 round mag and reload to the full clip you're carrying at the most inconvenient and dangerous time possible.

 

1 hour ago, ASL Veteran said:

For a box magazine like the BAR I don't think there is a way to know how much is left in the magazine without physically removing it and examining it - and even then with the rounds stacked on top of each other it might not be obvious

So because it's not obvious, when they've got ten minutes to sit around before the next engagement, they shouldn't swap out the mag or repack it?

Better to keep the clip with 'I don't know how many'?

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by WynnterGreen

[Michael Emrys]

2 hours ago, ASL Veteran said:

Most guys probably won't be carrying around 'loose' ammunition, although I suppose it might be possible.

You know those fabric bandoleers you see soldiers carrying sometimes? I have the impression that they carry boxed, i.e. 'loose', ammo. I'm not totally checked out on this, but as I say that has been my impression. I suppose the ammo might be in strippers, but the reason that I doubt this is that the bandoleers appear to be a universal item that MG crews could also use to reload belts.

Michael

[Ivan Zaitzev]

What bandoleers are you talking about? Do you have a picture to illustrate?

[Combatintman]

Try this:

http://picclick.co.uk/British-Army-Lee-Enfield-Khaki-Bandoliers-Original-Issue-201738868879.html

[Ivan Zaitzev]

Pretty sure they carried the Lee Enfield stripper clip there and not loose bullets.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Ivan Zaitzev

[Michael Emrys]

2 hours ago, Ivan Zaitzev said:

What bandoleers are you talking about? Do you have a picture to illustrate?

What I had in mind was this kind of thing here:

only all the images I could find showed the cartridges either in clips or strippers. My idea of them being in small boxes of maybe a dozen loose rounds is looking like vaporware.

Michael

[gnarly]

Whilst I understand and agree with the overarching suggestion in the r5wal world, my (obvious) question is; how would one define what an 'engagement' is in terms of the game code, or to put  it another way, how would any kind of code / logic / algoirithm determine the squad/team was at 'rest'? Once the team is stationary for 2 minutes with no visual contacts and no incoming fire for that whole time? Other situations or parameters?

 

Whilst the premise is logical, establishing a valid definition of 'resting' would I think be a necessary starting point. As well as understanding what level of low ammunition would justify a reload....

 

I think the last thing anyone wants is the alternative micromanagement option of yet another command 'reload' or some such...

Edited December 27, 2016 by gnarly

[ASL Veteran]

I think gnarly makes an excellent point from a game play standpoint.  Seriously though - it doesn't take very long to reload if the reloading consists of a full magazine or a strip clip.  Just push the button to release the magazine and it falls to the ground by itself.  You then slam the new one in and you are ready to go.  I don't know how it is with the Bren since it is top loading so I guess you would have to pull it off and toss it to the side.  The reality is that swapping out a magazine or popping in a new strip clip doesn't take but a second or two and if all your ammunition is already in a magazine or a clip I'm not sure I see the point of constantly topping off just because you have expended a couple of rounds of ammunition.  I certainly never paid much attention to the actual number of bullets in the magazine of the old M16.  I'm not even sure how you would count them to know how many were left or how you are supposed to keep an accurate count during the stress of a firefight.  I guess it is obvious if you remove the magazine and there are only two or three but if there are like more than six or seven left ...?  Well, and then I don't remember, but if you remove the magazine to top it off there may be a round chambered if you didn't expend your last round.  I seem to remember that there was a specific way to reload the M16 and the bolt was supposed to be open when you put the magazine in.  The bolt is open when you fire off the last round.  Maybe that doesn't make a difference though - I haven't fired anything in a few decades and the memory is fading.  Of course some weapons fire from an open bolt and some from a closed bolt.  If all you have to do is slam another magazine in to reload though, removing the magazine that's loaded to count rounds every time you have a quiet moment almost seems like obsessive compulsive behavior to me.  

[WynnterGreen]

You dont need to go into the mechanical details of reloading to understanding that not reloading when you have ample opportunity is STUPID and wouldn't happen.

[sburke]

Is the question based on real life military experience or from a first person shooter game where reloading a full clip has absolutely nothing to do with actually checking how many rounds are in a clip or trying to add rounds to a clip?  Just curious, I have no military background and have no idea what someone in the field would do. 

[WynnterGreen]

Ummmm..... I'm not sure how to explain it again to make it more simple.

 

Currently in CombatMission an individual will fire off any percentage of the ammunition from his current clip, magazine, belt, whatever.......   fine.

After he's  done so, it doesnt matter how much time passes, he won't swap out the clip or reload his firearm until he expends all the ammo in the currently loaded magazine...... Bad.

It might be thirty minutes/turns of idle time, and you might be about to assault him across a dangerous field, but he won't repack, reload or ensure that his firearm is properly loaded before the advance, no matter how much time or opportunity he's afforded.

He's happy to wait until he's discharged whatever's left in the magazine, and reload somewhere stupid, dangerous, illogical and inappropriate.

Any semblance of realism should require that each individual keep his ammunition loadout at optimal.

Including reloading and ammunition consolidation whenever possible.

As it stands, given time and opportunity, that's not what they do.

It doesnt require a 'reload' micromanagement button as someone implied.

It requires some coding that simulates reloading and consolidation. Much the same way that there's already coding for ammo sharing.

 

 

[zinzan]

OTOH We are talking about conscript and poorly trained (By modern standards) troops whose leaders (sgts/corporals etc) were also short term conscripts who had survived longer. 

It is important to remember that the standards of training of troops in WW2 was MUCH lower than nowadays.  One has to be careful to not judge a military simulation of poor quality troops by modern standards. 

Without wanting to get into arguments about more recent history - MANY troops in Vietnam were also making these types of "obvious" mistakes despite all the lessons of WW2 having been learned (Sarcasm detected)

[WynnterGreen]

1 hour ago, zinzan said:

OTOH We are talking about conscript and poorly trained (By modern standards) troops whose leaders (sgts/corporals etc) were also short term conscripts who had survived longer. 

Are we?

The game would beg to differ.

At the moment your Elite infantry units won't reload or consolidate ammo no matter how much time they're given between firefights.

[Hilts]

The best way if it were possible would simply be to have a (squad) re-load command button on the interface, for those guys who like to micro-manage.

[Michael Emrys]

11 hours ago, ASL Veteran said:

Just push the button to release the magazine and it falls to the ground by itself.

I think the Garand was quite a bit different. I have no personal experience with the weapon, but my understanding is that the clip was automatically ejected when the last round was fired. I'm not sure how you would get the clip out if there was a round or two still in it, maybe work the bolt/slide until it is completely empty. The issue of reloading a partially empty clip was addressed in print and was not something that would be done by choice.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

5 hours ago, WynnterGreen said:

Ummmm..... I'm not sure how to explain it again to make it more simple.

 

Currently in CombatMission an individual will fire off any percentage of the ammunition from his current clip, magazine, belt, whatever.......   fine.

After he's  done so, it doesnt matter how much time passes, he won't swap out the clip or reload his firearm until he expends all the ammo in the currently loaded magazine...... Bad.

It might be thirty minutes/turns of idle time, and you might be about to assault him across a dangerous field, but he won't repack, reload or ensure that his firearm is properly loaded before the advance, no matter how much time or opportunity he's afforded.

He's happy to wait until he's discharged whatever's left in the magazine, and reload somewhere stupid, dangerous, illogical and inappropriate.

Any semblance of realism should require that each individual keep his ammunition loadout at optimal.

Including reloading and ammunition consolidation whenever possible.

As it stands, given time and opportunity, that's not what they do.

It doesnt require a 'reload' micromanagement button as someone implied.

It requires some coding that simulates reloading and consolidation. Much the same way that there's already coding for ammo sharing.

 

 

I quite understand what you are saying, have done since your first post. The problem is not that you are wrong, as a matter of realistic depiction mostly I think you are right. But the problem of coding the behavior into the game may not be as simple or obvious as you may think and the comparison to ammo sharing may not be valid. That said, I hope it will get done. I don't have the issue come up much in my games for riflemen. Mainly the only pauses to reload I see are for MG crews.

Michael

[Migo441]

Oddly, I agree with both WynnterGreen that this is annoying and inconvenient (at best) when it occurs in game but also (and even more) with gnarly that it's not obvious how the game should handle it.  Plus, as others have pointed out, there are peculiar differences depending on the individual firearms that make this more or less complicated.

In short, I'm happy (I guess?) to continue to be annoyed and inconvenienced by this and would rather the devs spend time on other things rather than "top off ammo" features or additional micro-management.

[WynnterGreen]

2 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

I quite understand what you are saying, have done since your first post.

oh. Good.

Agree or disagree I'm glad the message is getting through.  

My intention isn't to comment on the 'feasibility or difficulty' of getting units to consoildate and prepare effectively in CM as a coding effort.

If it's an unreasonable expectation 'workload for reward', so be it.

My objective is to point out the discrepancy between what one might reasonably expect to see tactically, against what's reproduced behaviorally in the simulation.

 

[Sailor Malan2]

Ok, I think we have 2 problems here. 1; you are are way way too low a level of attention of you are worrying about individual ammo states if your troops' weapons. To blame stopping to reload during an assault as a problem is to miss several key issues (the assaulting troops should not be relied upon to fire and suppress the target that is what the supporting fires are for, as an example, how is reloading different from cowering in terms of effect on your troops)

2 it is not normal practice to top off ammo like a first person shooter, it takes time and leaves you with loads of difficult to use ammo as you run out. Apps, how do your troops know (in a. Arrow) that there have a few quiet minutes? In any CM game they will have fire close and the threat of instant action. Roughly 10% of them are effective, 90% are following if we'll lead but of them several will run or hide on any valid excuse.... counting ammo just isn't going to happen. Hell, some of them will struggle to remember to pull the pin from grenades!

[zinzan]

18 hours ago, WynnterGreen said:

You dont need to go into the mechanical details of reloading to understanding that not reloading when you have ample opportunity is STUPID and wouldn't happen.

And of course Stupid stuff never happens in combat - (Clue: I can think of lots that have happened in todays V.Modern, superbly trained and managed armed forces.  It even happens on Special forces operations!)

Don't forget elite forces in the Combat Mission sense are simply the best LARGE scale units with High morale, who have seen some combat.  This in no way equates to modern elite units. 

WWII era weaponry was supplied by the lowest bidder and in huge numbers - most troops didn't use assault rifles, they were often mechanically less reliable than modern weapons and by the time of most scenarios depicted in this game are being used by troops who are tired, away from supply/R&R and probably concentrating on being alive tomorrow - not fighting the enemy.  A unit in combat can have a LOT of different priorities to those you would expect. Straight afdter a Firefight (assumming you weren't running for your lives) getting reorganised, figuring out WHERE your team was and who was hurt was 1st priority.  if you think you've "won" your part of the battle you concentrate on cover, comfort etc before continuing the fight. 

Anyways just trying to point out that what we coul;d see as a prority is not the same as what a man on the ground may see as HIS priority.

 

[Sailor Malan2]

15 hours ago, Sailor Malan2 said:

Ok, I think we have 2 problems here. 1; you are are way way too low a level of attention of you are worrying about individual ammo states if your troops' weapons. To blame "stopping to reload" during an assault as a problem is to miss several key issues (the assaulting troops should not be relied upon to fire and suppress the target, that is what the supporting fires are for. As an example, how is reloading different from cowering in terms of effect on your troops?)

2 it is not normal practice to top off ammo like a first person shooter, it takes time and leaves you with loads of difficult to use ammo as you run out. Also, how do your troops know (in a scenario) that they have a few quiet minutes? In any battle equivalent to a CM game they will have fire close  to them and the threat of instant action. Roughly 10% of them are effective, 90% are following if well lead but of them, several will run or hide on any valid excuse.... Counting ammo just isn't going to happen. Hell, some of them will struggle to remember to pull the pin from grenades!

OK, above corrected for phone in a Mall effects!

Don't know why I couldn't edit direct. Posted from another device?

Edited December 28, 2016 by Sailor Malan2

[A Canadian Cat]

4 hours ago, Sailor Malan2 said:

Don't know why I couldn't edit direct. Posted from another device?

There is a time limit after which you can no longer edit. I am not sure what the time limit is though.

BTW I also think your analysis is correct as well.

[WynnterGreen]

On 28/12/2016 at 9:26 PM, Sailor Malan2 said:

1; you are are way way too low a level of attention of you are worrying about individual ammo states if your troops' weapons.

 (the assaulting troops should not be relied upon to fire and suppress the target, that is what the supporting fires are for)

It was noticing assaulting troops stopping at odd and infuriating times that bought it to my attention that units weren't reloading between engagements.

Which I then put to the test to confirm.

I'm not contending that it's a particular problem with 'assaulting units' or 'assault tactics', it's a systemic problem with reloading.

ie, that given ample opportunity and time, units aren't reloading their weapons. 

Which means that those 'assaulting units' are doing so with little ammo loaded due to lack of preparation, not lack of ammo.

 

There seems to be some disagreement with the assessment I've made. Fair enough.

I contend that it's a LONG way from First Person Shooter syndrome to expect moderately well trained troops to reload their weapons and consolidate ammo between firefights.

Assistant gunners and Squad Leaders should be insisting on it, it's their job, and there should be some kind of [under the hood] representation of that in game.

Currently there isn't.

Edited December 29, 2016 by WynnterGreen