Separatist push/Ukraine shove back

[A Canadian Cat]

Really this again? Isn't the peddling of that tosh officially not welcome here.

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, DMS said:

I asked you about photo, that is showed 2:43 of your video. Do that people look like Russian tankmen?

This is not tank crew - they havn't combinesons.  This is just LNR fighters of "Zarya" battalion, posing on background of T-90A of 136th motor-rifle brigade. Both participated in assault of Luhansk airport 31st Aug 2014. Man in the middle - Andrey Marochko, now press-secreter of "Peoples militia of LNR" in rank of mayor. 

Article about T-90A of this brigade here: http://sled-vzayt.livejournal.com/3367.html

This guy, Askai, writes good articles about Russian regular units and armor in Ukraine: http://sled-vzayt.livejournal.com

Also here full database of all Russian regular units, which were spotted in Ukraine by OSINT: http://russian-presence-in-ukraine.silk.co

1 hour ago, DMS said:

legendary Buryat tankmen e.t.c.

Ahah. He is real person Dorzhy Batomunkuyev, serviceman of 5th tank brigade. Of course, his interview to "Novaya gazeta" is a fake of "white-ribboned" 5th column.

Ok, here is detailed Askai's article about units of 5th tank brigade participation in Debaltseve battle: http://sled-vzayt.livejournal.com/?skip=10, though really Russian participation in Debaltsevo was episodical - no more two-three tank companies and approx same number of mech.units. Also several batteries of artillery and EW. 

Man, you still rejecting obvious facts. Fasion on "Prove, that our troops are there!" have already changed on "Yes, we are there. And what ?" Even on Lostarmor there are no any Russian, which rejects presence of... hm... "North Wind" (unofficial code name of Russian regular troops on Donbas). And of course all international organizations use a term "Russian agression in Ukraine" only because evil Obama dictated it   

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Apparently Tankmart is doing T-72B3s on special offer.....Or something. 

[Holien]

And so the thread gets derailed....

DMS say something useful related to the thread? Any chance?

Haiduk sets the standard, can you meet it, beat it?

[Wicky]

Seems there have been funerals for Russian army personel that don't get coverage in Russian media which doesn't want any mention of service personel deaths publicised to spoil the fiction that there are no - and there never were any - Russian troops in eastern Ukraine.

Russian reporters 'attacked at secret soldier burials'

and

Ukraine crisis: Forgotten death of Russian soldier

Edited March 4, 2017 by Wicky

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Did anyone ever honestly believe there weren't?  But what does it change?  If anything it only implies that Russia have no intention of giving up without a fight. 

The real question is 'Is the fight actually worthwhile for either side?'.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[DMS]

I have impression I am telling with the wall. Steve said about Debaltsevo, I doubt that there were regular units. In reply to my post John Kettler proves that in Ukraine is a lot of Russian equipment. Haiduk gives a link to a summer photos of 2014 as a proof of... Proof of what? And how it responds to Debaltsevo? Wicky gives a link to funerals with the date August 2014. Other forum members are disturbed because someone is denying Russian agression against Ukraine. Language barrier? Or am I so unclear?

1 hour ago, Haiduk said:

1 hour ago, Haiduk said:

Also here full database of all Russian regular units, which were spotted in Ukraine by OSINT: http://russian-presence-in-ukraine.silk.co

Navy, Federal Penitentiary Service (!), FSB, National guard!? Thanks, I laught a lot. That's what I call "stupid fake".

Edited March 4, 2017 by DMS

[IMHO]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

The real question is 'Is the fight actually worthwhile for either side?'.

Sarge, the thread is exclusively for things that have no real life impact on the situation  Like morality or a lack of it, five or six mines were lobbed over the LOC yesterday etc.

[Kinophile]

Kick/ban time. 

[DMS]

1 hour ago, Haiduk said:

Ok, here is detailed Askai's article about units of 5th tank brigade participation in Debaltseve battle: http://sled-vzayt.livejournal.com/?skip=10, though really Russian participation in Debaltsevo was episodical - no more two-three tank companies and approx same number of mech.units. Also several batteries of artillery and EW. 

Finally. Main proof - social media profiles of tankmen, where is written that they served in Russian army. But DPR recruiters search for volunteers with army expirience, and tankmen are higly valuable. And most volinteers served in conscript Russian army. But - pixel uniform and new tanks. So yes, probably that column was assembled directly by Russian army. I forgot about that episode.

Edited March 4, 2017 by DMS

[Haiduk]

18 minutes ago, DMS said:

Navy

Marines are not Navy ? All units listed there have visaual proofs. But critical analysys of information for vata... Unreal.

21 minutes ago, DMS said:

Haiduk gives a link to a summer photos of 2014 as a proof of... Proof of what?

Oh... What a trolling ! I just applaud you ! You asks about this screen with T-90A  "are they Russian tankmen" ? And say me "proof of what" ? 

"- Where your proofs ?

- Here.

- Where your proofs, that your proofs are proofs

- Here

- But this is Ukrainian and western sources. Can you give me proofs with link on Russian source. Can't ? Haha ! It's all fake then !" 

 

Guys. Just ignore this troll

[Wicky]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Did anyone ever honestly believe there weren't?  But what does it change?  If anything it only implies that Russia have no intention of giving up without a fight. 

The real question is 'Is the fight actually worthwhile for either side?'.

Some Putin quotes for you to mull over

“Ukraine is an independent, sovereign state and will choose its own path to peace and security. . . . Such a conversation would be entirely appropriate and entirely possible. I certainly don’t see there being anything particularly tricky here, anything that need or that could cast a shadow over relations between Russia and Ukraine.”
About Ukraine seeking membership in Nato, after the Nato–Russia Council was created at the Nato summit in Rome, May 28, 2002.

"Russian troops in Ukraine? Got any proof?" June 2014

“Let me be clear… I will say this clearly: There are no Russian troops in Ukraine." April 2015

“We never said there were not people there who carried out certain tasks including in the military sphere.” Dec 2015

Do you you understand why Putin and Russian media / propaganda / disinfo is so distrusted.

Quote

Russia's military has admitted for the first time the scale of its information warfare effort, saying it was significantly expanded post-Cold War.

Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu said that Russian "information troops" were involved in "intelligent, effective propaganda"

Keir Giles, an expert on the Russian military at the Chatham House think-tank, has warned that Russian "information warfare" occupies a wider sphere than the current Western focus on "cyber warriors" and hackers.

"The aim is to control information in whatever form it takes," he wrote in a Nato report called "The Next Phase of Russian Information Warfare".

"Unlike in Soviet times, disinformation from Moscow is primarily not selling Russia as an idea, or the Russian model as one to emulate.

"In addition, it is often not even seeking to be believed. Instead, it has as one aim undermining the notion of objective truth and reporting being possible at all," he wrote.

According to Mr Giles, the Russian military decided to prioritise information warfare after the 2008 Russia-Georgia conflict. The country's security apparatus drew lessons from its "inability to dominate public opinion about the rights and wrongs of the war", he said. 

Commenting on Mr Shoigu's remarks, former Russian commander-in-chief Gen Yuri Baluyevsky said a victory in information warfare "can be much more important than victory in a classical military conflict, because it is bloodless, yet the impact is overwhelming and can paralyse all of the enemy state's power structures".

Edited March 4, 2017 by Wicky

[DMS]

Just now, Haiduk said:

Oh... What a trolling ! I just applaud you ! You asks about this screen with T-90A  "are they Russian tankmen" ? And say me "proof of what" ? 

"- Where your proofs ?

- Here.

- Where your proofs, that your proofs are proofs

- Here

- But this is Ukrainian and western sources. Can you give me proofs with link on Russian source. Can't ? Haha ! It's all fake then !" 

Do you understand, that discussion was about Debaltsevo events? Did you try to read my posts? I understand, bad English, but word "Debaltsevo" must be clear...

[IMHO]

Nah, sorry - I understood how to use the source. This comment of mine was irrelevant. Apologies.

Edited March 4, 2017 by IMHO

[Haiduk]

Well. Some interest details of our position war near Avdiivka. Here TV-reportage from one of position of 72nd brigade in Avdiivka vicinity. One guy says that they in the night have walked with shovels from Butivka mine close to enemy and dug in new positions. Enemy only through two days uncovered their advance, because didn't see they through tree-plant. I don't know either he means known advance on 300 m, happened more than moth ago, or this is something new. I doubt, our troops can seize positions on second tree-plant on east from Butivka, which merge with southern overpass, keeping by enemy (northern overpass with VOP "Almaz") seized by our troops.

Also soldier tell about enemy tanks, which shell them and Avdiivka - they can't hit its, because enemy tanks firing indirectly from close position. This tactical trick our tankers started to learn in 2015 (recon with PDA on LOS as spotter + tank crew), but I first time hear about this trick from enemy side. Though this method uses as far as in Soviet times.

   

 

Edited March 4, 2017 by Haiduk

[Battlefront.com]

Well, that was entirely predictable.  It is why I pushed DMS on this point.  I wanted to make sure it was clear to everybody that DMS lives well within the Russian propaganda bubble, not the real world around us.

The topic of Russian military involvement in Ukraine is well documented in other threads here as well as all over the Western media.  It's been established as fact.  If DMS or anybody else wants to dispute this, fine.  But not here.  I don't want yet another pointless debate where one side shows real evidence and the other side refuses to debate in good faith.  Since it's not worked in any previous times, why would it work now?  The definition of insanity, after all, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

DMS, if you want to hold the belief that your government is not deliberately waging a war of aggression against Ukraine, because that allows you to sleep at night, that's your business.  But if you wish to discuss your flawed view of the world, do it somewhere else.  There's plenty of other websites that cater to conspiracy theories and "alternative facts" that you can participate in.  This is not one of them any more than this is a place to discuss how flat the Earth is or if it is 9000 years old and the stars revolve around it.

To the rest of you... don't rise to the bait.  DMS is trolling and you should not give into him.  Please don't keep letting him distract us from talking about the war that is really happening instead of the one the Russian media told him is happening.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

26 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

Well. Some interest details of our position war near Avdiivka.

You know, for a brain washed Ukrainian Right Sector Fascist Propagandist, you're doing a very nice job trying to keep this thread on topic.  I'm surprised you have the time to post here, what with all those babies you have to crucify

Seriously, thank you for your continued efforts to keep this thread interesting and relevant.

Steve

[DMS]

It looks like you intentionally "misunderstand" my words. Well, it is a thick cue by itself.

Edited March 4, 2017 by DMS

[Battlefront.com]

16 minutes ago, DMS said:

It looks like you intentionally "misunderstand" my words. Well, it is a thick cue by itself.

No, I understand.  I do also understand that the proof you decided to challenge wasn't about Debaltsevo.  What I'm trying to head off is yet another "rabbit hole" distraction from what is going on now.  If you really do have any curiosity and any room for questioning the official Russian government presentation of this war (which it says it isn't fighting, I remind you), then search the threads on this Forum for talk about Debaltsevo.  There's plenty of evidence that Buryat 5th Armored Brigade fought in Ukraine at several points in time, but especially at Debaltsevo.  There's also evidence from separatist sources themselves that the Russian forces which moved into the battle were the only reason the Ukrainians were pushed back.

Again, I do not want to have a discussion about this here.  I just wanted to make sure anybody looking at this conversation understand that the evidence exists, and can be easily found by anybody even remotely curious about the real war being fought.  However, it's not relevant to this discussion and therefore is a distraction to talk about it here.

Steve

[HUSKER2142]

For 3 years the alleged occupation of Ukraine do not have any photos from the satellite. As soon as Russia began operation in Syria the next day there were pictures of all Russian troops. I want to laugh and cry at the same time.

 

^{За 3 года якобы оккупации Украины нет ни одной фотографии со спутника . Как только Россия начала операцию в Сирии на следующий день появились фотографии всех российских войск . Мне хочется смеяться и плакать одновременно .}

[John Kettler]

Haiduk,

I don't pretend to know my way around your country well enough to know where things are in relationship to each other nor where all the active sectors are, but I just found a brand new account of combat today involving Ukrainian Navy Spetsnaz in which two Spetsnaz soldiesr were killed in a brutal 20 meter range firefight for a hill they were investigating as part of inspecting the lines. They reportedly took a 20man enemy recon force under fire and brought in reinforcements, saving the position. Believe this was a separate push from the one you've been so ably chronicling.

http://en.censor.net.ua/resonance/378013/advanced_point_last_battle_of_73rd_center_soldiers_yurii_horaiskyi_and_oleksandr_khmeliarov_on_march

Regards,

John Kettler

[IMHO]

On 3/4/2017 at 0:32 AM, Haiduk said:

Sappers are demining stations, but works going too slow because of enemy shellings. Reserves of water in Avdiivka left on one day. Water will be delivering State Emergency Service from Kharkiv.  OSCE UAV was shot down yesterday in that area. OSCE can't say what side shot.

Haiduk,

I was waiting for the proofs. So by enemy shelling you should have meant UKR side, should you not?  Here's the video of Donetsk Filtering Station being demined and restored by DNR sappers and Emergency Services. At 01:17 on the second video DNR sappers are shelled by 120mm and the guys are trying to get in contact with the UKR side to request a ceasefire. Unless it's regular UKR line that it's only UKR side that's being shot at and when someone shoots at DNR - it's DNR shooting its own feet

https://youtu.be/oSoUJ30gP9Y

https://youtu.be/Q1vSL5uH1tQ

Early election and removal of Poroshenko even at the cost of a chemical war!  He's too peaceful, he might even want to implement Minsk!  

PS Would you also comment on the costs of coal blockade to the UKRAINIAN economy? It would add a good perspective to the videos - so the guys would know it's not an isolated incident but a systemic approach to using frontline action in the intra-UKR political maneuvering.

Edited March 5, 2017 by IMHO

[Haiduk]

11 hours ago, HUSKER2142 said:

For 3 years the alleged occupation of Ukraine do not have any photos from the satellite. As soon as Russia began operation in Syria the next day there were pictures of all Russian troops. I want to laugh and cry at the same time.

 

^{За 3 года якобы оккупации Украины нет ни одной фотографии со спутника . Как только Россия начала операцию в Сирии на следующий день появились фотографии всех российских войск . Мне хочется смеяться и плакать одновременно .}

Аhah. More trolls ! Bellingcat and Ukraine@War investgations with satellite shots? No, not heard. For why ? This is western fakes and photoshop! Only RT, only Life, only Kiseliov, only hardcore ! If CIA personally didn't show for me sat shots thеn вывсёврётинастамнет !  

@IMHO My post reflected situation on 2nd of March, when Russian part of SCC OSCE rejected to give written guarantees of cease fire around DFS. Yesterday guarantees were received and demining was continued under OSCE control with both sides together - as you see on 1:34 a servicemen of Ukrainian State Emergency Service (writing "Служба порятунку" on his back unlike DNR "MЧС") also enetered in DFS building with OSCE representatives. 

About 1:17 episode with "shelling of sappers" - good show for TV  Radio chat: "Incoming of 120mm right from "Hospodar" on sand quarry". This is 1350 m from DFS on east - see wikimapia. They are covering near their car, but no sound of mortar shell in the air. Just distant explosions. As for me several shots from Yasynuvata fork in querry direction. To create "right" TV-picture "evil ukies trying to foil work of sappers".

I support blockade and consider that many in our political elite have a profit with trading with "Ukrainian controlled factories on temporary uncontrolled territories" (sounds weird) and because of that they started information campaign "blocade=econonic disaster", but indeed it's just "horror stories". No more any comments, because this is offtop.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Haiduk

[HUSKER2142]

1 hour ago, Haiduk said:

Аhah. More trolls ! Bellingcat and Ukraine@War investgations with satellite shots? No, not heard. For why ? This is western fakes and photoshop! Only RT, only Life, only Kiseliov, only hardcore ! If CIA personally didn't show for me sat shots thеn вывсёврётинастамнет !

Not Durkee. And you do not look their propaganda TV "1 +1", etc. Whether the real proof of the existence of Russian troops, our song has been sung for a short time.What prevents the west help lethal weapon ? Putin's fear, do not tell.

^{Не дуркуй . А вы не смотрите свою пропаганду ТВ "1+1" и т.д. Будь реальные доказательство присутствие российских войск , наша песенка давно была спета. Что мешает западу помощь летальным оружием ? Путина боятся , не смешите .}

 

P.S. My good friend before the start of 2017, was neutral as to his family. Since January, he and his family did not want to return to the Ukraine and there are many. How are you going to persuade these if your president does not want to spend the federalization.

Мой хороший знакомый до начала 2017 года , был нейтрален как и в его семье . С января он и его семья уже не хотят возвращаться в состав Украины и таких много . Как вы таких собираетесь переубеждать , если ваш президент не хочет проводить федерализацию .

[Holien]

So Husker2142 are you saying no Russian military forces in Ukraine? Yet another attempt to derail this thread..

So sad we have so many mushrooms...