Separatist push/Ukraine shove back

[Haiduk]

12 minutes ago, IMHO said:

Just as a morning joke - please go no further...

There's such a thing as Ukrainian Special Anticorruption Bureau - modelled after FBI at the insistence of EU/IMF. The Bureau opened a case of a theft of over 100 mln USD from the Ukrainian state budget. The case is opened against a number of MPs and high-placed officials and one of the latter is the Head if the State Tax Service (yes, the very very head of it ) According to Ukrainian law when a case is opened the next step in the chain of legal actions is to deliver a notice to the person under suspicion. So to avoid this the Tax Service guy checked into a hospital and the Ukrainian Anticorruption Bureau was not able to deliver the notice as they were stopped by a duty nurse. She said those were not the visitation hours at the time 

http://112.ua/obshchestvo/pravoohraniteli-ne-smogli-popast-na-territorii-feofanii-chtoby-soobshhit-nasirovu-o-podozrenii-375478.html

PS The article said they were able to get into the hospital premises after some time but does not say if they delivered the notice - probably the guy was healed miraculously and left the hospital  Again, don't want to go no further - just had a good laugh this morning.

They have delivered notice and Nasirov simulated heart attack (usual practic for our corrupted officials). Four his lawyers now claiming that delivering was illegal. 

On photo - delivering of notice and transporting of "suddenly heart-attacked" Nasirov to resusctitation.

  

But I have only one question: WHAT THE HELL THIS CAN RELATE TO MILITARY OPERATIONS ? How that Kinophile said - distracting ? And also offtoping and spamming

Edited March 3, 2017 by Haiduk

[Holien]

I guess humor is in the eye of the beholder...

To me this is trolling again...

I would love for our Russian friends to post similar reports as Haiduk has but from the opposition angle.

I guess they can not as they know nothing and add nothing to this thread. Prove me wrong...

Haiduk your restraint does you proud...

[Kinophile]

1 hour ago, Holien said:

I would love for our Russian friends to post similar reports as Haiduk has but from the opposition angle.

 

THIS. 

[Kinophile]

Multiple ignores. 

So much nicer. 

[IMHO]

2 hours ago, Holien said:

I would love for our Russian friends to post similar reports as Haiduk has but from the opposition angle.

I guess they can not as they know nothing and add nothing to this thread. Prove me wrong...

Firstly Haiduk posts are accurate in my opinion though quite selective. Secondly, there are certain places online where one can read in real time what's going on - local residents on both sides of the line warn each other about shelling and attacks so people on the other side can run for cover. You watch these sources and you see someone reporting an outgoing salvo, then in a minute or two you see a post about where it landed. And these sources are very accurate - way better than OSCE save bull**** from either side. Locals can now differentiate full pack of Grad from half-a-pack, guns and mortars down to caliber etc. So you may try to go on and on reading the stuff but it really has no significance whether it's gonna be five shells from UKR vs. three shells from DNR today or the other way around. It may sound cruel but actually watching it unfolding in real time is quite boring.

But if you want something, I can add some stuff to the story of Donetsk Water-purification Station  A little background: as I said before the economy and everyday life of Donbass is intertwined irrespective of the line of control. There is a Donetsk water purification station that supplies potable water to Donetsk (DNR) AND Mariupol (Ukraine). The station stands in a no man's land and contains few tons of chlorine so the mutual agreement was no side occupies the station itself as it may end up literally in little chemical war. In accordance with the latest strategy Ukrainian side decided to move in the no man's land and occupy the station. Certainly it ended in a huge fuss - DNR claiming nazis are on the march , Ukraine's pretending it does't know whose people are there, OSCE and Two-Party Commission running crazy knowing the consequences 

There's a guy named Khodakovsky - a former head of Donetsk branch of Ukrainian Secret Service Special Forces. Now him and his men are all in DNR but he had personal differences with Zakharchenko (Head of DNR) so he speaks quite a lot lately. His men are manning the DNR line at the Station. So according to him the truth is somewhere in the middle beween DNR and UKR versions. Ukrainian "patriotic" battalion put an HMG on the Station and started shooting at DNR positions. Add some sporadic mortar fire from Ukrainian side but nothing really threatening. Though officially deemed a no-man's land the station is deep inside Ukrainian position and the agreement was UKR could have positions close enough to fire-control the station just in case. Now come many days of frantic negotiations, OSCE and Two-Party Commission involved just to persuade the stupid people to remove single HMG. They were shooting from HMG nest for two or three days they moved away. No major military threat to DNR positions, no "en-masse" attack from UKR as advertised by DNR... May be intentional provocation but may well be sheer stupidity...

You see every time I'll post something like this I have to type a lot just to provide even simplest background on sources or local tactical situation  I type a lot and the result is more or less the same as it was before. It does not really matter whether PFC Onyschenko shot SGT Danilyuk this time or the other way around. There are tectonic shifts happening as we speak but they are not on the front lines.

PS @Haiduk, please comment on Water Purification Station - I have not done multiple checks this time, so could be wrong somewhere...

Edited March 3, 2017 by IMHO

[IMHO]

The important things are (in my opinion):

1. A closely connected chain of events: change of Ukrainian tactics, coal blockade, DNR/LNR stopping paying taxes to Ukrainian budget (yes, they have paid so far ), DNR/LNR taking over Ukrainian-controlled businesses on their territory (everything of sensible size was even operationally managed by UKR side )
2. Change of Ukrainian olygarch power map and its reflection in Ukrainian political landscape. Deterioriation of economical situation as the Ukrainian blockade hits Ukraine itself at least as hard as DNR/LNR if not harder.
3. Possibility of new/early elections and, obviously, the idea of resuming war being more popular among both elites and populace.
4. Possibility of ad hoc cut offs of water/electricity supplies etc. Whoever starts - it might be reciprocal.

Point 1 is happening right now. Main loosers are Eastern Ukrainian originating olygarchs plus Poroshenko.

Edited March 3, 2017 by IMHO

[DMS]

19 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Wow.  Very little of this is factually correct and what little is has been carefully taken out of context.  Like, for example, your accusations of anti-Maidan people going "missing" while not mentioning the extremely well documented arbitrary arrests, summary executions, torture, and other crimes committed in the short reign of the "Mayor" of Sloviansk.  Haven't you figured out by now that there's quite a few of us who know what the truth is and are not subject to believing Russian propaganda?

And none of this matters.  Russians nationals with ties to the GRU started the "uprising", Russian forces fired over the border into Ukraine, Russian forces fought in Ukraine, Russian forces are still in Ukraine.  Russian weapons, trainers, political leadership, and financing are the only reason the DPR/LPR exist.  And yet the Russian government denies almost all of it to this day.  The simply question to ask is:

If Russia believes it has a morale and/or legal justification for being in Ukraine, why does it lie about its activities there?

You see. Anti-maidan = GRU agents, Russian nationals. Who else will protest against overthrowing of their president?

Probably yes, there were tortures. Hey, CIA torture prisoners. Civil war is not possible without tortures and executions. But maidan rebels started this war.

Russia should tell about activities in Ukraine after U.S. admit their activities in orgainising "revolutions" all over the world, I think. Not earlier. By the way, U.S. help to "moderate" terrorists in the Syria looks like the same. Scale is lower, there are no volunteers, but supplies and spec ops take place. There are no regular units, but aviation is actively used. And U.S. ally, Israel, use to attack Syrian goverment units. "Hybrid war" is usual thing nowdays, unfortunately.

Sorry for arguing simple and clear picture of "Russian agression against small and democratic Ukraine". But if you say that, I thought that alternative point of view won't be odd.

20 hours ago, Haiduk said:

Man, something wrong with your chronology :). Can I recall you also, that first blood on Donbas is a blood of Ukrainin activist Cherniavskiy, which was killed during attack of thugs on pro-Ukrainain march in Donetsk 13th March ? In March also VSU were sent to protect east border from possible repeating of "gentle green men" actions, because on Donbas was't any army unit excepting 156th SAM regiment. Punish ? Ahah. So, armed Girkin detachment, wich infiltrated on territory of Ukraine and captured Sloviansk and Kramatorsk at 11th April, came just to gift a roses ? Can I recall you Girkin's words "I have pulled trigger of war"? Without Girkin and hybrid Russian support, all on Donbas would finished like in Kharkiv - all "Russian world" adepts just would lay faced down.

VSU could not protect anything from "green men", we all know that.

Girkin is an "adventurer", who has no relation to Russian goverment. Yes, he wants to be a historical figure who started the war. But the truth is that he had 50 men, while in Slavyansk was 300 men militia when he came. And many hundreds in Donetsk and Lugansk. (Unarmed activists - many thousands) He gave good TV picture for Ukrainian propaganda, Russian FSB colonel who leads the "terrorists"! He couldn't make the better gift to Kiev goverment.

Sure. Go and lay down 100 thousands meeting. You made mass murder in Odessa not just for fun, but to terrorise, so people wouldn't go on streets.

By the way, do you have right to "lay faced down" people, who protest against illegal revolt? Maidan fighters captured administration in Kiev, and anti-maidan fighters have no right to capture administration in Donetsk?

Edited March 3, 2017 by DMS

[Rinaldi]

That's the best you got? More half-assed whataboutism? First ignore - an unhappy milestone. What unintelligent crock.

[DMS]

Just now, Rinaldi said:

That's the best you got? More half-assed whataboutism? First ignore - an unhappy milestone. What unintelligent crock.

Another name of "whataboutism" is "binding the precedent", there is such concept in common law. And not only in the common law, but in international relations too.

And keep calm please, you anger doesn't make you better!

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by DMS

[Battlefront.com]

5 hours ago, IMHO said:

You see every time I'll post something like this I have to type a lot just to provide even simplest background on sources or local tactical situation  

It doesn't have much to do with the fighting itself.  Getting distracted by the potential politics of why there is a fight over something or not isn't very relevant. 

As for your other post, the one that was 100% off topic, please do not keep doing that.  If you think nobody else is capable of posting things which are distorted or potentially embarrassing to Russia or their proxy states... please think again   Oh, like the unusually high rate of "heart attacks" among the Russian general staff lately.  You do not have a special privileged to post such things, so stop doing it.

2 hours ago, DMS said:

You see. Anti-maidan = GRU agents, Russian nationals. Who else will protest against overthrowing of their president?

Probably yes, there were tortures. Hey, CIA torture prisoners. Civil war is not possible without tortures and executions. But maidan rebels started this war.

Russia should tell about activities in Ukraine after U.S. admit their activities in orgainising "revolutions" all over the world, I think. Not earlier. By the way, U.S. help to "moderate" terrorists in the Syria looks like the same. Scale is lower, there are no volunteers, but supplies and spec ops take place. There are no regular units, but aviation is actively used. And U.S. ally, Israel, use to attack Syrian goverment units. "Hybrid war" is usual thing nowdays, unfortunately.

Sorry for arguing simple and clear picture of "Russian agression against small and democratic Ukraine". But if you say that, I thought that alternative point of view won't be odd.

VSU could not protect anything from "green men", we all know that.

Girkin is an "adventurer", who has no relation to Russian goverment. Yes, he wants to be a historical figure who started the war. But the truth is that he had 50 men, while in Slavyansk was 300 men militia when he came. And many hundreds in Donetsk and Lugansk. (Unarmed activists - many thousands) He gave good TV picture for Ukrainian propaganda, Russian FSB colonel who leads the "terrorists"! He couldn't make the better gift to Kiev goverment.

Sure. Go and lay down 100 thousands meeting. You made mass murder in Odessa not just for fun, but to terrorise, so people wouldn't go on streets.

By the way, do you have right to "lay faced down" people, who protest against illegal revolt? Maidan fighters captured administration in Kiev, and anti-maidan fighters have no right to capture administration in Donetsk?

Sigh.

We've had discussions about how this war started many times already.  We've heard the specific allegations you've made each time.  Your grasp of the facts is extremely poor because it comes only from Russian state controlled media.  The same people who are responsible for this war are hardly going to present a fair picture of it, are they?  This puts you at a serious disadvantage in any discussion involving facts, as it has every other person making the same arguments before you.

Such intellectually weak and factually flawed justifications/excuses for what Russia is doing in Ukraine always ends in embarrassment for the one pushing it.  Always.  In part because I make sure of it.  As someone who has spent a few thousand hours studying this conflict and predicted it years before it happened, I don't even break a sweat challenging the junk facts, junk reasoning, junk perspective, and junk context that comes from Russian propaganda's view of the world.  You'd likely have an easier time of convincing me that Russians secretly landed on the moon (and no, I don't think that happened either).

For your own sake, please stop.  You're doing nothing more than reminding us how successful the Russian state is in misinforming its citizens about the real world and discouraging critical thinking skills.  If you want to have a bunch of people think that you aren't well informed and blind to reality, that's your business.  But do not seek that sort of attention here because it is distracting for those of us who do value good information and critical thought.

Steve

[DMS]

Sure I am propaganda reader, who listens that state media says, and you are well informed person, who takes information from many reliable sources. (Like info about FSB units assaulting DAP because FSB helmets are expensive at Ebay) That's why "junk info" about earlier events in Ukraine shouldn't be considered and picture of "Russian invasion in Ukraine" is only true. Okey, if you say so.

Edited March 3, 2017 by DMS

[Battlefront.com]

19 minutes ago, DMS said:

Sure I am propaganda reader, who listens that state media says, and you are well informed person, who takes information from many reliable sources. (Like info about FSB units assaulting DAP because FSB helmets are expensive at Ebay) That's why "junk info" about earlier events in Ukraine shouldn't be considered and picture of "Russian invasion in Ukraine" is only true. Okey, if you say so.

Heh... well, you are at least consistent.  As for the eBay thing, Putin is the one that said that's where the stuff was coming from during the Crimean invasion that he said wasn't happening

As I said, your perspective is extremely badly informed.  There's nothing that you said that I couldn't challenge, and there's vastly more that you have not mentioned.

But for the fun of it... do you believe that the Russian government is supplying weapons, ammunition, money, leadership, and training to the DPR/LPR?  Do you believe that Russian Federation government forces have fought directly in the Donbas?  I am not asking for reasons or "whataboutisms".  Just two straight forward yes or no answers will suffice.

Steve

[DMS]

Just now, Battlefront.com said:

But for the fun of it... do you believe that the Russian government is supplying weapons, ammunition, money, leadership, and training to the DPR/LPR?  Do you believe that Russian Federation government forces have fought directly in the Donbas?  I am not asking for reasons or "whataboutisms".  Just two straight forward yes or no answers will suffice.

Fought. (Past simple) Surely, August-14. 2 BTG or so, and artillery from our side of border and near it on that side. May be some low scale actions after that, may be artillery units few times, comrade Shoigu doesn't report to me.

I wrote here multiple times that Russia helps DPR and it is good, because military defeat of DPR would be a catastrophe. Help is not only humanitarian, of course, but all that you mentioned above.

Why do you think, that Russian help to DPR is something bad from Russian point of view and all Russians should deny it? Many people want Russian army to go in Ukraine and stop that massacre. Someone says that losses would be too high, someone wants better relations with West, but noone (with except to 1-3% of pro-ukrainian minority) thinks that Russian help to DPR is something shamefull. Сontrariwise, popular opinion is that help is not enough, that goverment cares too much about their money and too afraid of sanctions.

Edited March 3, 2017 by DMS

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, DMS said:

Fought. (Past simple) Surely, August-14. 2 BTG or so, and artillery from our side of border and near it on that side. May be some low scale actions after that, may be artillery units few times, comrade Shoigu doesn't report to me.

Well, at least there's that   I suspect from your comments you don't think that Debatlseve counts or that there's not a permanent presence of Russian forces in DPR/LPR.  But I'll take what I can get because for the first year of the war I had many, perhaps even you, on the pro-Russian side vehemently denying all of this.

As for the rest, I'm skipping it because it will just go on forever.  You seem to hold value in public opinion that is formed through massive and deliberate misinformation.  I do not.  Unlike you, I have faith that if the Russian people were properly informed about their government's actions they would not approve of it.  Which is, most certainly, why the Russian government is lying about what is going on each and every day.  Their fake view of the world is much more useful to them than the real one.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

OpEd piece in The Hill advising against any attempts to "Munich Agreement" away Ukraine's interests without them even in the room.  It talks about the opinions of the average Ukrainian who wants to see their country become more democratic, but also not give it's land away to Russia even for peace.  He argues that whatever the polices are in the West, they should be based on these two notions:

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/international/322203-dont-ignore-the-progress-and-hopes-of-the-ukrainian-people

Steve

[DMS]

Just now, Battlefront.com said:

I suspect from your comments you don't think that Debatlseve counts or that there's not a permanent presence of Russian forces

Permanent - no, if you mean regular units, not special units, who can be "mojaheds", "Hamas fighters" or whoever when needed.

At Debaltsevo were a lot of problems, that wouldn't exist if Russian army took part. Militia assembled rag-tag (If it is right word. Сводные) combat groups from many units, because units were not combat-ready. Progress was very slow.

Just now, Battlefront.com said:

As for the rest, I'm skipping it because it will just go on forever.  You seem to hold value in public opinion that is formed through massive and deliberate misinformation.  I do not.  Unlike you, I have faith that if the Russian people were properly informed about their government's actions they would not approve of it.  Which is, most certainly, why the Russian government is lying about what is going on each and every day.  Their fake view of the world is much more useful to them than the real one.

Main Russian propaganda tool is Ukrainian youtube videos and Ukrainian posts in social media. I won't give details not to raise up political discussions, but belive me, they make more than any TV show.

Edited March 3, 2017 by DMS

[Sgt.Squarehead]

52 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

OpEd piece in The Hill advising against any attempts to "Munich Agreement" away Ukraine's interests without them even in the room. 

Bit short on citations, that one.   

[Haiduk]

11 hours ago, Holien said:

Haiduk your restraint does you proud...

Oh, I just have about 10-years experience of discussions on Russians around-military forums  Only with very small part of Russians can discuss with arguments, on other 90+ % better don't waste a time. 

8 hours ago, IMHO said:

please comment on Water Purification Station

Sappers are demining stations, but works going too slow because of enemy shellings. Reserves of water in Avdiivka left on one day. Water will be delivering State Emergency Service from Kharkiv.  OSCE UAV was shot down yesterday in that area. OSCE can't say what side shot.

Yesterdays losses are biggest since Svitlodatsk battle - 1 KIA 22 WIA. 11 of them wounded and traumatized in Avdiivka area. SP-gun blew up on road bomb near Sartana - too close to combat area, possibly enemy diversion group could set TM-62 mine or road bomb.

@Battlefront.com 

Quote

To be clear... they heard one strange sounding outgoing shot and three explosions?

Yes.

On photo a tree-plant in "promka" area after shellings.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Haiduk

[IMHO]

8 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

As for your other post, the one that was 100% off topic, please do not keep doing that.  If you think nobody else is capable of posting things which are distorted or potentially embarrassing to Russia or their proxy states... please think again   Oh, like the unusually high rate of "heart attacks" among the Russian general staff lately.  You do not have a special privileged to post 

Steve,

1. Jokes on heart attacks seem too mean to me - there might be people who have experienced it directly or went through it by close relatives. So NO, THAT'S BAD and it has nothing to do with Russia.
2. If you expect I have a boner every time you say Ukraine is good and Russia's bad - you're wrong So I'd rather join you in having a good laugh than deny the obvious. Or even not so obvious but still true

Edited March 4, 2017 by IMHO

[Battlefront.com]

9 hours ago, DMS said:

Permanent - no, if you mean regular units, not special units, who can be "mojaheds", "Hamas fighters" or whoever when needed.

I figured as much.  The documentation of Russian units operating in Debaltseve is one of the most documented episodes of Russian military involvement.

9 hours ago, DMS said:

At Debaltsevo were a lot of problems, that wouldn't exist if Russian army took part. Militia assembled rag-tag (If it is right word. Сводные) combat groups from many units, because units were not combat-ready. Progress was very slow.

And here is why it's so important to not deny basic facts of reality.  There is no hope of you adding anything positive to a discussion about the fighting in Ukraine if you don't even understand what forces are fighting there.  The statements you make have no value because of that.

9 hours ago, DMS said:

Main Russian propaganda tool is Ukrainian youtube videos and Ukrainian posts in social media. I won't give details not to raise up political discussions, but belive me, they make more than any TV show.

No, the main Russian propaganda is the Russian media.  In particular the television media that roughly 95% of Russians say they get their information from.  I doubt 95% of Russians get their news from Ukrainian YouTube videos.

8 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Bit short on citations, that one.   

Heh.  Well, it is an OpEd which is not really intended to be an in depth view.  Plus, I meant to post that to a different thread and not this one   While semi-topical, it really shouldn't have been posted here.  It is just a tiny piece of opinion that I noted.  On its own it's not very important.

3 hours ago, IMHO said:

Steve,

1. Jokes on heart attacks seem too mean to me - there might be people who have experienced it directly or went through it by close relatives. So NO, THAT'S BAD and it has nothing to do with Russia.
2. If you expect I have a boner every time you say Ukraine is good and Russia's bad - you're wrong So I'd rather join you in having a good laugh than deny the obvious. Or even not so obvious but still true

Again, if I said "OK everybody, post your vision of a joke having to do with Ukraine or Russia in any form", what do you think would happen?  Yeah, a mess.  So don't think you are so special that you can carve out an exception for yourself.  Especially after I just got through warning people about such behavior.

And to clarify (since you seem confused)... I do not say "Ukraine is good".  Where have I said anything of the sort?  I've said Ukraine is a victim of foreign aggression and as a result are having its rights violated, not to mention billions of Dollars of infrastructure damage, thousands of deaths, and many other negative things which would not be happening if war was not being waged upon it.  I've also been positive towards the improvements in the Ukrainian military in such a short period of time.  Not perfect, but better than many would have predicted of that I'm sure.  But you do have me on "Russia's bad".  It is and there's a very strong factual case to be made for that based on even modest expectations of how nation states should behave towards one another.

Steve

[DMS]

Just now, Battlefront.com said:

I figured as much.  The documentation of Russian units operating in Debaltseve is one of the most documented episodes of Russian military involvement.

Do you mean fake documents of "Russian soldiers", various "vehicle journals" or unit's documents of all sorts? Or Russian passports, that can be not fake, but don't prove anything. Or other Urkainian fakes? Ukraine is like the boy who cried "wolf" too often, may be there are some real evidences, but they are buried under tons of stupid fakes with wrong names, factical mistakes of unit location e.t.c.. But you read only Ukrainian sources, considering Russian as propaganda, and believe. But ok, may be I am wrong and you use real evidences.

How do you estimate the role of Russian army units at Debaltsevo? Motor-rifle units that liberated Logvinovo? Tank units, covering militia infantry? Artillery units that don't risk to be spotted from Ukrainian positions? Special units, wearing milita uniform?

[John Kettler]

DMS,

Evidence of Russian forces in Ukraine?

T-72B3, a model Ukraine never possessed, doesn't possess now and is solely Red Army.

https://warisboring.com/this-tank-has-become-an-icon-of-russias-secret-war-in-ukraine-19711a6b7bae#.v4f2j97zq

That refers to this informative bellingcat article on how to tell T-72 models apart.

https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2015/05/28/tankspotting-how-to-identify-the-t-72b3/
 

In turn, a UK journalist, Graham Philips (whom we've seen in Russian proxy trenches near Donetsk under artillery fire) tweeted from near Debaltseve, with an armored column in the background consisting of T-72B3s!

https://twitter.com/APulkki/status/567084541169655809/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

In that twitter is this crushing video

The Russians, in an effort to sell the "These are Ukraine's tanks, not ours, even went so far as to take a T-72B3 and put Ukrainian markings on it!

http://www.polygraph.info/a/russia-kremlin-ukraine-donbas-tanks/28308649.html

But the case for Russian involvement in Ukraine goes way beyond all of the above, as this devastating-to-Russian propaganda video shows. Not only does it show an incredible array of weapons and support vehicles unique to Russia, but it has forced me to drastically modify my understanding of what a "robust EW capability" looks like!

Here's the accompanying what was seen where list.

https://informnapalm.org/en/database-russian-weaponry-donbas/
 

The evidence against your claims of no direct Russian presence in Ukraine is simply overwhelming and incontrovertible.

Regards,

John Kettler

[DMS]

Just now, John Kettler said:

The evidence against your claims of no direct Russian presence in Ukraine is simply overwhelming and incontrovertible.

Please tell me how presence of Russian T-72 tanks proove presence of Russian regular units at Debaltsevo.

Watch your second video at 2:43, look photo in the low right corner. What do you think about it?

[John Kettler]

DMS,

Don't know how many times this has to be stated, but the T-72B3 is in service only with Russia. But, if you like, forget that tank. The other video clearly showed not one, but a stack of Russia only AFVs, EW systems and transport--none of which were ever in service in Ukraine, and most of which did not exist when Ukraine was reborn! Remember, too, I used to be a SME on the Russian and Warsaw Pact militaries. As such, I knew the EW systems then very well.  The ones shown weren't in service at the time (I left military aerospace late June 1989), nor did most of the AFVs outright or T-72s of the versions shown. The T-72B3 didn't enter service with the Red Army until 2013, but modern day Ukraine was born in 1991! Therefore, there is absolutely no way, despite all the propaganda in the world, that the Ukrainians could've had them in inventory when the Soviet Union collapsed. Then there's a forensic image analysis (video below) not only showing T-72B3s destroyed in combat near Ilovaisk, but captured examples as well, together with yet another Russia only T-72 version destroyed in Ukraine, the T-72BA, which also entered service long after Ukraine was reborn. Not only is there the irrefutable physical presence of the tanks on the battlefield, but those tanks are tied to crewmen, from known Russian units, shown in pictures on those tanks and identified by name on SM, likely VKontakte. Further, in reference to one of the tanks, another member of a Russian unit says on SM it was destroyed in Ukraine. In one instance, the turret had a unique number on both the tank shown in Russia and the wreck of it in Ukraine. There are slogans, too, well documented on some of the tanks in Russia, which also are on wrecked tanks in Ukraine. Understand these aren't stenciled but applied from spray cans by the tankers themselves. As such, each slogan is unique to that particular tank and no other. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'd say you're somewhere on the spectrum between not wanting to believe and flatly refusing to believe your Rodina has sent frontline tank forces, equipped with Rodina exclusive tank versions, into battle in Ukraine and has lost not just tanks, but crewmen wounded and kiled there as well. I'm truly sorry for all concerned, but the truth of the matter is plainly evident. No Big Lie (a term coined by Adolph Hiter, ironically), however cleverly packaged and relentlessly pushed, can change what is not only demonstrably true, but proven through multiple means.

And if ALL of the above doesn't suffice, there is the enormously detailed and specific account of the commander (commander Kovalsky in charge of Checkpoint 39-06 near Ilovaisk) of the Ukrainian unit which, to its total surprise, captured a T-72B3 (from Russia's 8th Motorized Rifle Brigade), complete with Russian documents, and with the Belarus and French radioelectronics system installed. Sosna-U exactly fits that description, for it was designed in Belarus, manufactured in Russia. Presumably, he said "Belarus" because what he observed had components from there, despite being manufactured by VOMZ, a Russian firm. There is also direct photographic evidence (below) of French thermal equipment (what Kovalsky called "heat vision sights") in a captured T-72B3 in Ukraine.  Additionally, Colonel Kovalsky was later bagged by Russian troops (surely a Ukrainian would know the difference between Ukrainians and Russians, right, depsite their wearing no unit patches?) and spent ten (10) days with them as a POW before being exchanged! In his account, he also talks about having a captured Russian paratrooper with his unit prior to his own capture. There is a photo of this man, Ruslan Akhmetov, who went home in the same prisoner exchange which freed Colonel Kovalsky. It is at the bottom of the account by him.

http://en.censor.net.ua/resonance/349305/colonel_kovalskyi_we_captured_russian_t72b3_to_our_own_surprise_it_was_the_first_engagement_for_most

This is an extensive piece on the connection between Russian tank thermal sighting capabilities and the French supplying high resolution IR detectors Russia simply can't make. The fact the French got an agreement from the EU that deliveries under contracts from pre 2014 were exempt from sanctions is quite revelatory, not to mention shady, and it appears the T-14 Armata will be taking advantage of that. 

https://euobserver.com/investigations/129953

Image Credit: RUSI

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited March 4, 2017 by John Kettler

[DMS]

Just now, John Kettler said:

 

This information was publised many time ago and is well known to those, who is interested in this conflict.

Yes! These are Russian tanks, as I said above. So how does it prove that Russian army regular units were at Debaltsevo? Regular units. Ukrainians use to call random Russian tank unit that has T-72B3 tanks and is deployed somewhere near the Ukraine. But they are usually inaccurate and often publish nonsence. (about GRU brigades assaulting DAP, not-existing units that were disbanded some time ago, legendary Buryat tankmen e.t.c.) You always believe Ukrainian information, but you shouldn't demand everyone would believe it just because. I believe photos and videos, but not to comments about brigade numbers, as these statements are not proven by anything.

I asked you about photo, that is showed 2:43 of your video. Do that people look like Russian tankmen?

You think that I am protecting mother-Russia on foreign internet forums to avoid sanctions or what? If some unit was there - it was. Problem is that Ukrainians dispise DPR militia and explain any defeat lying about "Russian hordes", so anyone who wants know truth should check info carefully.

Edited March 4, 2017 by DMS