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Separatist push/Ukraine shove back

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The simple facts could be written also like:

1.  There would be no war in Syria without indirect US leadership, funding, weapons, and above all ammunition (it wouldn't have even started, in fact)

2.  US continues to supply these things despite signing something which says that US will stop doing so

3.  US has prevented any discussion of UN Peace Keepeers or a joint European force with Russian participation

etc...

All this points i am not interested in! Bring us dear administrator some news about comming engine upgrade, otherwise its just wasting of your programming time. I know there are X-mass, but we are waiting for different presents...

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9 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Not even remotely equivalent.  The blogs are about as useful and useless on both sides, for sure, but the reporting out of the area by people who claim to be journalists is decidedly different in tone, content, and portrayal of reality.  Which is understandable because Ukraine really is defending its country from a ruthless foreign enemy so it doesn't have to make up stuff like the Russian media does.

A lot of Ukrainian media is just as bad, especially the state media under their Ministry of Information, and the number of Ukrainian journalists that were murdered in Kiev - one of them being a good friend of my girlfriend's grandfather when he worked for Pravda in the 70s.

On one side you get made up crucifixions, and the other you get misinformation.  Two sides of the same coin, really.  Honestly, the OSCE and other western news sources do their own reporting are probably the best sources.

By the way - thanks for the other sources earlier in the thread, Steve.

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20 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

The simple facts are:

Not going to start there because as our past arguments we've just stretched out for pages. But the thing is the Russian military wouldn't be able to organize the uprising if the people in the region didn't support it. It's not like we supported an uprising where the goal was to get to Kiev and topple the government (cough Syria and US/Saudi support for documented terrorists) it's strictly defensive in a way, if it was offensive I could see more than the half of Donbas controlled by now the same way it was happening in Syria. The conflict needs to stop Ukraine needs to recognize the region as autonomous and the war is over it's not going to spread over anywhere else is it? 

20 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

the DPR/LPR didn't regularly block and interfere with the OSCE's activities, maybe they could cover the Russian point of view a little better?

Not true. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MOukaoUrlQ this being one of many links to OSCE observers being able to freely observe. Anyways, the point wasn't whether or not they are allowed to observe it's that they don't report it fairly, and sometimes they just refuse to go and observe the militia areas. In this case Russian observers were present with this OSCE unit. OSCE is credible but reading other sources especially local ones that post high intensity shelling coming over the Ukrainian side, the reporting does seem unfair.

20 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Not even remotely equivalent.  The blogs are about as useful and useless on both sides, for sure, but the reporting out of the area by people who claim to be journalists is decidedly different in tone, content, and portrayal of reality.  Which is understandable because Ukraine really is defending its country from a ruthless foreign enemy so it doesn't have to make up stuff like the Russian media does.

Oh yes Shevchenko being marked a Kremlin agent... Or the many other funny statements coming out of Ukraine. Even them supporting the recent killing of the Russian ambassador... Ukraine isn't defending anything... That is outrageous. Even the Ukrainians know the populace in the East is in support of DPR/LPR and Russian support... They lost the chance to be able to defend their nation after they couldn't defend the rights of the Russian minority in the country... In which they've been living as brothers with for centuries. Here's something I think we both can agree on; if the people who hated the old government would have forced a country wide election rather than oust the power right out without the say of the minority, things would have been less dramatic than the way they are now.

Edited by VladimirTarasov

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For heaven's sake guys,  can we please stop letting Vlads opinions derail a perfectly good thread? 

You don't have to reply,  and  it's especially  pointless as neither side will convince the other. 

Let's keep this on target,  not wildly shooting off into the bushes. 

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Sorry Kino!

Seems like the engagement has been pretty quiet for today.  Here's some more info on the battle.

http://en.censor.net.ua/resonance/420138/svitlodarsk_fighting_of_dec_18_and_19_seven_ukrainian_soldiers_killed_one_missing_in_action

I'm not sure what to think of the news website, but it definitely seems to show the official line.

Oh, and yesterday - http://en.censor.net.ua/news/420363/two_ukrainian_soldiers_killed_four_wounded_four_shellshocked_yesterday_ato_speaker

And today: http://en.censor.net.ua/resonance/420313/fighting_at_svitlodarsk_situation_report_as_of_dec_21

Does anyone know anything about censor.net?

Edited by HerrTom

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39 minutes ago, Kalavelka said:

Why does the adminstration even let him spread his pro Kremlin propaganda time after time?

Listen if you think I'm a putin bot go ahead get me banned, I'm just sharing my view on the matter at hand. I'll stop commenting about politics if it really gets under your nerves that much.

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43 minutes ago, HerrTom said:

A lot of Ukrainian media is just as bad, especially the state media under their Ministry of Information, and the number of Ukrainian journalists that were murdered in Kiev - one of them being a good friend of my girlfriend's grandfather when he worked for Pravda in the 70s.

For sure the track record of state and criminal sponsored attacks on Ukrainian journalists is well documented.  Unfortunately it continues to some extent.  However, the amount of independent journalism in Ukraine is significant as is the amount of foreign independent media.  The Ukrainian government also doesn't have the sort of money it needs to drown out independent reporting.  Lastly, the Ukrainian government is not uniformly marching behind a single autocratic ruler, and that means there's always some degree of support for opposition media.  This means that the degree of message control the Ukrainian government has is decidedly less than what Russia has.  The result is that Ukrainian media is generally more reliable and less extreme when it decides to twist/break the truth.

43 minutes ago, HerrTom said:

On one side you get made up crucifixions, and the other you get misinformation.  Two sides of the same coin, really.  


I disagree.  Media in general is a mixture of objective reporting, outright lies, misinformation, and highly organized disinformation.  The proportion of each is important to keep in mind.  Russia is heavy on disinformation and lies, very sparing on objective reporting.  Ukraine's media is definitely not balanced in a similar fashion.

43 minutes ago, HerrTom said:

By the way - thanks for the other sources earlier in the thread, Steve.

No problem!

29 minutes ago, Kalavelka said:

Why does the adminstration even let him spread his pro Kremlin propaganda time after time?

He repeats obvious lies, I repeat obvious truths.  By having both here people can see how ridiculous and false the Russian perception is of this conflict.  And that is important in figuring out how to deal with it.

Having said my piece, I'll respect Kino's wish and not respond to an easily rebutted challenge to my list of simple facts.

27 minutes ago, HerrTom said:

Sorry Kino!

Seems like the engagement has been pretty quiet for today.  Here's some more info on the battle.

http://en.censor.net.ua/resonance/420138/svitlodarsk_fighting_of_dec_18_and_19_seven_ukrainian_soldiers_killed_one_missing_in_action

I'm not sure what to think of the news website, but it definitely seems to show the official line.

Oh, and yesterday - http://en.censor.net.ua/news/420363/two_ukrainian_soldiers_killed_four_wounded_four_shellshocked_yesterday_ato_speaker

And today: http://en.censor.net.ua/resonance/420313/fighting_at_svitlodarsk_situation_report_as_of_dec_21

Does anyone know anything about censor.net?

Censor.net has been at the forefront of getting information from Ukrainian and Russian sources out there in English.

Their reporting is obviously pro-Ukraine biased, but over the past few years of reading reports there I haven't found any pattern of misrepresenting the facts in any meaningful way.  Obviously this does not mean their reporting is always accurate in detail since they are trying to cover things as they happen with limited ability to fact check aspects of their stories.  I view this as a credible source, though one should double check it against other sources.  For example, this profile of Wagner Group is certainly written with a biased tone, but factually speaking I found no errors with it against the fair amount of knowledge I have about this particular subject:

http://en.censor.net.ua/resonance/381743/mystery_of_wagners_identity_unfolded_he_is_russian_officer_and_head_of_large_private_military_company

BTW, Wagner was spotted at a Putin event last week.

Steve

 

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1 hour ago, HerrTom said:

 

Does anyone know anything about censor.net?

Censor.net is resource of journalist Butusov, which was close to oligarch Kolomoiskyi. He is often sharp and unreasonably blaming president and chief of the staff in all failures on front. Butusov=hysteria. But, from other hand, his resourse contains priceless stories of servicemen, which took part in different operations - by its can clarify many moments. Despite on Butusov like to pump "all is lost !!!", his articles about Svitlodarsk bulge battle mostly reflect real situation

 

Back to the battle. Today enemy wasn't so active, but their mortars and artillery worked long time. Small groups of enemy infantry are trying to reach own lost positions, sometime they approach up to 70-100 m, but pushing off by our fire. Our artillery also work, but mostly like barrages. No command to suppress enemy batteries on outskirts of Horlivka and other settlements. 

Edited by Haiduk

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The problem is that the western perception of the conflict is often no better. In many ways thanks to western media as well.

For example one could use the term "separatists" if there are ones.

But because of the obvious facts of russian occupation with russian nationals being in every single "ruling seat" of fake "people's republics" - it's 'russians' and a fair amount of 'collaborators', not "separatists".

It's a russian century-old trick dating back to the war with Ukraine of 1917-1918 when russkies invaded with a massive army but kept telling everyone it's a yet another "People's Republic" rising.

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11 minutes ago, kraze said:

It's a russian century-old trick dating back to the war with Ukraine of 1917-1918 when russkies invaded with a massive army but kept telling everyone it's a yet another "People's Republic" rising.

Reminds me that the language used in Bulgakov's White Guard very accurately mirrors the language used now.  The wheel of history always comes right back around...

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37 minutes ago, kraze said:

The problem is that the western perception of the conflict is often no better. In many ways thanks to western media as well.

For example one could use the term "separatists" if there are ones.

But because of the obvious facts of russian occupation with russian nationals being in every single "ruling seat" of fake "people's republics" - it's 'russians' and a fair amount of 'collaborators', not "separatists".

It's a russian century-old trick dating back to the war with Ukraine of 1917-1918 when russkies invaded with a massive army but kept telling everyone it's a yet another "People's Republic" rising.

Yup.  It's why I tend to use quotes when I use the term "separatist".  The problem is that there is no one good term to use because there is a mix of people doing the fighting:

1.  Ukrainian nationals who believe they are fighting for a better life (a small number by this point, but I'm sure they still exist)

2.  Ukrainian nationals who are fighting for personal benefits, in particular money

3.  Russian nationals who believe they are fighting for a better Russia (a small number by this point, but I'm sure they still exist)

4.  Russian nationals who are fighting for personal benefits, in particular money

5.  Russian nationals released from prison to fight in Ukraine (I think this has slowed down from its highpoint, but I'm sure many are still in Ukraine and still more are trickling in from Russia)

6.  Russian state service personnel volunteering to pretend to be "separatists"

7.  Russian state service personnel coerced into pretending to be "separatists"

8.  Russian service personnel still in the established Russian chain of command (though, of course, they pretend to be "separatists")

9.  Citizens from various countries that are fighting in Ukraine for ideological reasons such as fascism, Orthodox church, pan-slavism, etc. (not many these days, I think)

10.  Citizens from various countries that are fighting in Ukraine for personal benefits, in particular money (not many these days, I think)

11.  People that are a mix of these things (e.g. started off being one, wound up being another).

With such a large mix individuals fighting on the side of Russia, it's difficult to come up with a good term for them as a collective whole.  "Separatist" is false, but so is "Russian forces" or "Russian Army".  The best term I've come up with is "Russian proxy forces", but I'm lazy and often just write "Russian" because at the end of the day Moscow is directing all of this.

Steve

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36 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

Censor.net is resource of journalist Butusov, which was clode to oligarch Kolomoiskyi. He is often sharp and unreasonably blaming president and chief of the staff in all failures on front. Butusov=hysteria. But, from other hand his resourse contain priceless stories of servicemen, which took part in different operations - by its can clarify many moments. Despite on Butusov like to pump "all is lost !!!", his articles about Svitlodarsk bulge battle mostly redlect real situation

In the early days of the conflict and the Ukrainian 2014 offensive Butusov was one of the only people getting regular information out of the frontlines that was worth putting some belief in.  However, he overstated things and had some problems filtering out the normal fog of war stuff.  But as things have gone on I've found his information is more-or-less reliable.  One just has to ignore his strongly biased language :)

It's always important to remind people that people can be biased and factually correct. 

Steve

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16 minutes ago, Kalavelka said:

Just a friendly thought: Threads would stay in focus if Vlad would be kicked next time he starts broadcasting

That's not very helpful.

-------------------

Thanks everyone for the information about Censor.net!  The More You Know!

All in all, it seems the following has happened:

18. Dec a DNR detachment attacked Ukrainian positions on hill 220, leaving 3 Ukrainian soldiers dead, and 4 dead and 1 wounded on the DNR side.  In response, the Ukrainians lead a 20 man detachment to cut off the retreat, routing the DNR attack.  In response, artillery fire commenced on Ukrainian positions.  Ukrainian artillery moved forwards to retaliate but was unable to completely silence the DNR's guns.  There may have been tanks and BMPs involved in the battle.

19. Dec further skirmishing and a cease fire of artillery at 2000L

20. Dec continued skirmish using infantry weapons - presumably DNR units from the neighbouring heights engaging the Ukrainian trenches and vice versa.

Overall, Ukraine says 7 dead, 1 missing, and 25 wounded.  An IFV was damaged but repaired in the field.

Edited by HerrTom
Better blocking

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40 minutes ago, HerrTom said:

That's not very helpful.

-------------------

Thanks everyone for the information about Censor.net!  The More You Know!

All in all, it seems the following has happened:

18. Dec a DNR detachment attacked Ukrainian positions on hill 220, leaving 3 Ukrainian soldiers dead, and 4 dead and 1 wounded on the DNR side.  In response, the Ukrainians lead a 20 man detachment to cut off the retreat, routing the DNR attack.  In response, artillery fire commenced on Ukrainian positions.  Ukrainian artillery moved forwards to retaliate but was unable to completely silence the DNR's guns.  There may have been tanks and BMPs involved in the battle.

19. Dec further skirmishing and a cease fire of artillery at 2000L

20. Dec continued skirmish using infantry weapons - presumably DNR units from the neighbouring heights engaging the Ukrainian trenches and vice versa.

Overall, Ukraine says 7 dead, 1 missing, and 25 wounded.  An IFV was damaged but repaired in the field.

Not 220 hill, but VOP "Kikimora" westward. 5 KIA, 1 captured at 18th 

20th Artilery used more then infantry weapon. 4 WIA for today as minimum

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3 hours ago, Kalavelka said:

Just a friendly thought: Threads would stay in focus if Vlad would be kicked next time he starts broadcasting :) Happy holildays!

Great recommendations, merry Christmas to you as well! 

3 hours ago, HerrTom said:

Thanks everyone for the information about Censor.net!  The More You Know!

All in all, it seems the following has happened:

18. Dec a DNR detachment attacked Ukrainian positions on hill 220, leaving 3 Ukrainian soldiers dead, and 4 dead and 1 wounded on the DNR side.  In response, the Ukrainians lead a 20 man detachment to cut off the retreat, routing the DNR attack.  In response, artillery fire commenced on Ukrainian positions.  Ukrainian artillery moved forwards to retaliate but was unable to completely silence the DNR's guns.  There may have been tanks and BMPs involved in the battle.

19. Dec further skirmishing and a cease fire of artillery at 2000L

20. Dec continued skirmish using infantry weapons - presumably DNR units from the neighbouring heights engaging the Ukrainian trenches and vice versa.

Overall, Ukraine says 7 dead, 1 missing, and 25 wounded.  An IFV was damaged but repaired in the field.

So much sources saying so much different things just about this one battle. 

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3 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

So much sources saying so much different things just about this one battle. 

Tell me about it.  Quite the headache!  Thank you Haiduk for the correction.

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Historians are going to have a lovely time writing about this conflict, separating fact from fiction is going to be a ridiculous process. One the one hand having so many sources is great, but when 90% of it is garbage its going to be tough to sift through.

Edited by Raptorx7

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11 minutes ago, HerrTom said:

Tell me about it.  Quite the headache!  Thank you Haiduk for the correction.

DPR guys say the Ukrainians launched the operation, they hit a minefield somewhere took some casualties from that during December 18, and the separatist FO got some strikes with mortars onto the UA forces. Artillery duels are being fought since December 18, constant bombardment. I'm not sure what source to believe in conflicts like these where both sides are known to exaggerate or lower casualty rates. I shared a video on the first page with an interview with a DPR Colonel, he also said that the UA forces suffered tens of losses. 

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@Haiduk this might be outside your speciallty but, I'm curious about artillery expenditure  (# rounds fired) in a skirmish like this. 

In my DAR against that cellar dweller

@TheForwardObserver

he counted some 400 rounds fired by my Russian 152s, in the first 30 mins. For me, I'd have loved to double that - rarely did the ROF feel sufficient to deter his baby-eating HATO swamp trolls from still pushing forward. 

Roughly how many UKR batteries would be involved in a fight like this latest one? 

 

 

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Recently came across a VICE News special and realized that what's going on in Ukraine is a low-intensity conflict, not a 'ceasefire' by any stretch of the term. There's some great footage related to CMBS and video footage of Op UNIFER that @Rinaldi had introduced in a separate thread, as well as some commentary on the exercises as @IICptMillerII had asked for in that thread:

"Ukraine: Canada’s Proxy War"

https://video.vice.com/en_ca/video/on-the-frontlines-of-ukraines-proxy-war-between-the-west-and-russia/57bb3cf440f990b3503a564a?latest=1

 

 

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