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Separatist push/Ukraine shove back


Kinophile

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56 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

The point of no return has been passed in Ilovaisk.

Haiduk, that's exactly the nationalistic hysteria that is so dangerous. They are just people irrespective of which side of the line of control they live. With such an attitude it may well end up being Israeli-Palestinian story rather than Transnistria one. Transnistria may stage a military parade of their armed forces once a year but in reality of everyday life it's part of Moldova. People live on one side and go work across the line of contact. Transnistria economy is strongly intertwined with Moldovan and both sides reap the benefits. Hell as Moldovan wedding is quite large it's quite common to have banquets in Transnistria just to save money. And I'm not talking about laymen but Moldovan elite.

Edited by IMHO
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Trying to remove occupants from someone's soil is nationalistic hysteria?

Why even fight any wars then? Simply surrender to foreign occupation - after all occupants are people too. Yeah they kill and rape your compatriots - but not liking that is nationalistic hysteria and we can't have that. I mean just check out history - those were some really great times for everyone who was occupied by Russia during past century. Who wouldn't want to live in such misery today?

After all russian occupied territories of Moldova, Azerbaijan and Georgia live in such prosperity now. OH WAI-

And Crimea which went from a tourist center of Ukraine into a decaying military junkyard with zero tourism and full economic isolation in under a year. Oh why these stupid ukrainians don't want to reap the benefits?

Edited by kraze
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Some photos from Svitlodarsk bulge 2-3 days ago. There is also escalation in that part of front especially between Troitske and Kalynove villages.

Firing position of 2A65 "Msta-B"

C3t-OyqVYAE2M_m.jpg

46th separate battalion "Donbas-Ukraine" in night fight near Novoluhanske

C3uaJmAXUAMyfb4.jpg

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6 hours ago, IMHO said:

Steve's analysis is wrong as it oversimplifies the situation by looking at it as if it were a Combat Mission scenario. And it is not. 

Hmmm, I am not Steve and I think he might have a different view. 

I guess it is not a question for here, but at what point do you concede to aggression against you to save lives? Should the Syrians have said hey better to live under a dictator than rubble. Anyway not a question that can be answered here.

Haiduk thanks for the insight of your opinion on how the Ukraine population feel.

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Rinaldi, kinophile, Haiduk. I tell about numbers of military casualties. I don't think that you can find any reports of Amnesty internatinal, Red cross, e.t.c. about military losses. May be there are summary numbers like "2 thousands were killed during 2014-2015 years", but you won't find any detailed reports. Give a link to such report if I am wrong. Such numbers can give Ukrainian volunteers, and the gave it in 2014. And sometimes in 2015-2016. (Charkov hospital volunteers, for example) But now they "don't want to help Russian propaganda".

And that international organisations are also affilated and are not 100% independent, of course. In Syria they are very friendly to "opposition", in Urkaine they are friendly to loyalists. In Chechnya they sympathized to "Chechen rebels" before terrorists "thanked" them killing Red cross members. You can't ignore their bias.

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9 hours ago, IMHO said:

 

 

20 hours ago, John Kettler said:

From there, you seem to be going to "what are you trying to sell us?" mode...

No, I'm not :) Checked other sources for sat/location pics. Haiduk was right - I was wrong :)

 

IMHO,

This may be a first. A two-smiley global error acknowledgement. In any event, handsomely done.  

Haiduk,

Your government may need to move you to an undisclosed location. Your impressive imagery analyst skills have been noted by important people here, and our recruiters are en route! Be sure to push for a high GS number.

Regards,

John Kettler

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8 hours ago, Haiduk said:

Pollings roughly show that about 30...35  % wants military resolving, but exactly this part of society is most active. Polling for December 2016 didn't has this question, but was about Minsk agreements evaluations and results of hypotetical referendum about Donbas status. So only 9 % consider Minsk agreements positive, 30 % - negative, 32 % - neutrally or "something is positive, something is negative", 16 % - "I don't know about this"/ "not interest", 12 % - "hard to say something about this"

If referendum would be claimed, 49 % of Ukrainians will take part, 24 % - undecided. 53 % of referendum participators (44 % of all population) would vote for recognition of Donbas as occupied territories and full isolation of it until Donbas not be back under Ukraine control, 30 % of referendum participators (23 % of all population) will vote for "special status of Donbas" and amnesty for DNR/LNR fighters/politics, which didn't commit any hard crimes: http://razumkov.org.ua/uploads/socio/infoDonbas1116.pdf

And Ukraine is not Georgia. Russian invasion was big surprise for Georgian authorities, which prepare own army only to fight with separatist forces. We now is preparing army for direct engagements with Russia (even in Russia understand, that DNR/LNR forces without Russian support and supply will be destroyed during a month or even less). The point of no return has been passed in Ilovaisk. 

 

Question here - are these polling without counting DNS and LNR inhabitants? In this case its not full representative...

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2 hours ago, Holien said:

I guess it is not a question for here, but at what point do you concede to aggression against you to save lives? Should the Syrians have said hey better to live under a dictator than rubble. Anyway not a question that can be answered here.

Why? It can be answered. 12.5 million Sunni Arabs want to rule the land since they are the majority within the current borders. 1.6 mln Kurds and about a million Turkoman want their own corner of the country. Ruling two million minority does not want to share the spoils of power they're used to. Half a million Christians of all creeds face a certain annihilation should Alawites go down so they join the fight on their side. The sons of Ibn Saud has been clamouring for Shia's blood for centuries so they happily start financing ISIS.

Now pious Western disciples of black-and-white worldview come to fray but all of a sudden they find the simple concept of harsh dictators and diligent populace crying for democracy does not exactly match the situation. The most democratically righteous way to overthrow the dictator inevitably leads to mass beheadings. And to fight against the modern barbarism means to put up with the very dictator they came to topple. They remember how they briefly met quite likable and well-mannered chaps of the Sunni descent but it turns out these people speak just for a tiny sliver of few thousand souls with modern education in a country of 18 millions. And "...30-35% wants military resolving, but exactly this part of society is most active" to quote from Haiduk. Just in case of Syria these 30-35% consider themselves living in the Middle Ages so military resolving means beheadings in their case.

Does it look like an accurate enough description of Syria? Has black-and-white worldview brought desired outcomes in Libya or Iraq? And we've touched the mere surface: Sunni is just a generic term, the real force that's driving the action is the tribal structure. It was laughable when State Department promised to separate Nusra, Daesh et al. from "democratic opposition" within a week. It seems the guys base their decisions on a two slide Powerpoint Executive Summaries. They firmly believe in their ability of getting rid of the legacy of centuries within a week.

PS Certainly in no way I suggest to equate ISIS and the situation in Donbass/Luhansk.

Edited by IMHO
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21 hours ago, kinophile said:

Curious...? 

Just politics. Projects being directed at foreign governments while our own has plenty to write about. Suggestions from inside in that direction getting thrown out of the window, so to speak. For example the subject of weapons trading. Anyway actually I don't want to put AI in a bad perspective because basically they do good work. Just saying politics is a thing, even in AI.

Edited by Lethaface
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10 hours ago, kraze said:

Trying to remove occupants from someone's soil is nationalistic hysteria?

Do you believe that Ukrainian forces are shelling Donbass day and night because they believe that 1.5 mln inhabitants living there are actually Russian occupying force? Do I need to provide the links to the photos and videos about the shelling or you've seen them? And if I may quote Haiduk here...

11 hours ago, Haiduk said:

53 % of referendum participators (44 % of all population) would vote for recognition of Donbas as occupied territories and full isolation of it until Donbas not be back under Ukraine control

DNR/LNR forces without Russian support and supply will be destroyed during a month or even less

If I read correctly:

  1. Ukrainian forces are fighting DNR/LNR local militia at least at the moment.
  2. The majority of Ukrainians want the end of the war and don't care much about what happens to Donbass.
10 hours ago, kraze said:

...after all occupants are people too. Yeah they kill and rape your compatriots...

I remember no credible reporting on any rape of significance either on Ukrainian side or DNR/LNR. Have I missed something?

10 hours ago, kraze said:

After all russian occupied territories of Moldova, Azerbaijan and Georgia live in such prosperity now.

  1. What part of Azerbaijan you mean except for the Russian embassy "occupying" a plot of land in Baku? :)
  2. For Moldova - may be you can read more on it? You will find many interesting things there. Like Transnistria secession movement sprang up not because Transnistria has ever belonged to Russia (save possible Russian Empire long ago). Rather it started because Transnistria historically belonged to Ukraine and was given to Moldovan SSR only after the WWII. One of the most active "patriotic" organization that now fights on the Ukrainian side in the Donbass and Luhansk - UNA-UNSO - fought FOR Transnistrian independence and AGAINST Moldovan forces. The 14th Guards Army of USSR that you probably call "Russian forces" was mostly made up of local citizens. I say USSR because the conflict started before the dissolution of Soviet Union and before Russia has even reappeared on the map. So in a sense it was 14th Guards Army of Moldova if you use official name of the republic it belonged to.
  3. For Georgia it's even stranger - there's quite an official internationally recognized sequence of events.
Edited by IMHO
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Haiduk,

The subject of the OP is front page news on Yahoo and links to here.

Trump Talks to Putin, and Suddenly Ukraine’s in Play

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2017/02/03/Trump-Talks-Putin-and-Suddenly-Ukraine-s-Play

That last photo, were it B/W, looks like something from the GPW. I continue to have a sort of perverse fascination with continued Russian use of antiquated gun lines. Seem to recall the Georgian artillery punished such practices when that South Ossetia conflict was raging.

Regards,

John Kettler

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Iloviask was a pretty credible and understable point of no return. 

Russian forces with militant support trapped and decimated a significant UKR force,  causing c. 1,000+ UKR casualties in a week. 

This proved to the general UKR populace that Russian was always involved, was now leading and would be in military control of the rebellion from now on. A restricted  invasion but an invasion none the less. 

Points of no return are common in intense conflicts, serving to punctuate/alter the flow of events by drastically affecting popular moods. 9/11, Invasion of Checkoslovakia, or (for the few anglo-irish here) Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland, Omagh funeral bombing,  Executions of Irish Rebel leaders after 1916 uprising.  

It's not nationalistic hysteria to react when the true ruthless aggressiveness of your opponent is revealed. It's common sense to face up to what is now plain as day.

Edited by kinophile
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13 hours ago, Marwek77 aka Red Reporter said:

Question here - are these polling without counting DNS and LNR inhabitants? In this case its not full representative...

Of course, no. Man, uderstand -  this is OCCUPIED territories ! Any representative of Ukrainain media or polling services risks to increase number of POWs and hostages if will cross demarcation line and will be exposed during own work. Until on occupied territories will be Russian controlled separatists forces and regular Russian troops, until local population will be brainwashed by Russian medias and will be believe in "crucifaied boys" and "US negros-merceneries, which dancing on "Abramses", - no any representative pollings and free elections will be there.   

Edited by Haiduk
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11 hours ago, IMHO said:

Do you believe that Ukrainian forces are shelling Donbass day and night because they believe that 1.5 mln inhabitants living there are actually Russian occupying force?

We not believe, we see enemy troops, armed by Russia and supplied by Russia on our land and fight them - and no matter who are they - locals, Russians, European or South American left-radicals, volunteers or regulars. Any state in this case must defend itself with armed hand - unlike Chekhoslovakia in 1938. "1,5 mln of inhabitants", when cried on rallies "Russsia! Russia!" and "Putin, put troops !", now have to blame themeselve, that war have came to their homes - ok, Rusisa have came as they want. Either Strelkov with own armed group, which seized Sloviansk and Kramatorsk in April 2014 was local inhabitant ? He said yourself: "I have pulled trigger of war". So, remain this Russian media fairytales about "desperated coalminers", which "Kievan junta want exteminate for Russian languge" for Russian forums.

 

4 hours ago, kinophile said:

Russian forces with militant support trapped and decimated a significant UKR force,  causing c. 1,000+ UKR casualties in a week.

In about two times less (if to count killed only) and 80 % of them in one day. 

Edited by Haiduk
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12 hours ago, IMHO said:

Do you believe that Ukrainian forces are shelling Donbass day and night because they believe that 1.5 mln inhabitants living there are actually Russian occupying force? Do I need to provide the links to the photos and videos about the shelling or you've seen them? And if I may quote Haiduk here...

1.5 mln inhabitants somehow take all the free space and russians have nowhere else to put their tanks and artillery? I guess that's why they have to shell ukrainian positions from inside Donetsk.

Quote

 Ukrainian forces are fighting DNR/LNR local militia at least at the moment.


    The majority of Ukrainians want the end of the war and don't care much about what happens to Donbass.

Oh come on dude, we are on a CMBS forum, you are not fooling anyone here with "local militia" riding T72B3s, MTLBMs and Vympels, while russkies in UN and PACE, who have "nothing to do" with this, keep dictating what laws Ukraine should and should not make OR ELSE. Try forums where people can't tell T72 variants apart or don't know OOBs and are just naive.

Quote

What part of [...]

Nagorno-Karabah - filled with russian "peacekeepers". Transnistria - filled with russian "peacekeepers". South Ossetia and Abkhazia - filled with russian "peacekeepers".

Peculiar turn of events - the moment a former USSR country capitulates before "peaceful local militia" seizing some territory - suddenly that territory gets filled with russkie army - like it was never different. Crimea is exactly the same example. Didn't fly in Donbass apparently. Somehow I don't see any "internationally recognized sequence of events" that led to an international acceptance of russian occupation of any of these territories. So better quit repeating the same excuses that stopped working in Afghanistan, we both know how it really is

Edited by kraze
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11 hours ago, John Kettler said:

That last photo, were it B/W, looks like something from the GPW.

Maybe best photos "GPW-style" is a photo of artillerists (summer 2014)

40_main.jpg

... and photo of lieutenant of 46th sep,battalion "Donbas-Ukraine", which is starting advance of own unit in Novoluhanske in Dec of 2016. In Russian media real hysteria have started because "Ukrainain nazi have desecrated famous photo of soviet battalion commander, which raised own figters in attack" (below this photo)

15540913_1319269951471086_43765882299788

rian_archive_543_a_battalion_commander.j

Edited by Haiduk
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kinophile,

I don't buy the point the situation was artificially created by Russia.

I've been travelling to Ukraine 4-5 time a year for a decade up to a few months after the hostilities started. Simply because I have so many friends in Ukraine and I believe Kiev the best city to live in. One could feel how hostility between East and West grew year by year. 12 months before Maidan we've been sitting in a restaurant in Kiev and Kievan friends of mine were doing an unpleasant job of emergency planning for their lives and the lives of their families as it was clear that something bad would happen. Nobody knew what specifically but it was clear that some kind of catastrophe is looming. To deduce that one didn't need no information on Russian troops movements along the border. The real answer was in the dynamics of Gross Regional Product per capita and numbers in regular "internal use" polls. Agricultural West was lagging further and further behind industrial East in terms of disposable income. That was giving a false sense of comfort and superiority to the elites of the East while radicalizing the leaders of the West beyond point of no return. Jokes about bad hombres of Mexico good for nothing beyond menial jobs are a locker room truism for the US. But the same grassroots xenophobia was growing in Ukraine. Easterners buying a dozen Westerners by a dime as household hands. Westerners despising the East for not falling in line about the idea of the Great Ukraine. The East and the West were even furthering different economic systems. The Russian speaking belt along the border were beneficiaries of economic cooperation with Russia boosted by the oil boom. While the best hope for the people of the West was to become a Ukrainian "Polish plumber" somewhere in EU. All against the background of failing state finances and the urgent need to have a financial lifeline either from EU or Russia. And whatever side Ukraine chooses half the country would feel betrayed.

So tens of thousands of people joining DNR/LNR forces all of a sudden, police and military personnel going over in droves to the secessionist side. Hell the biggest and most capable force of the East at the beginning were the elite Special Forces of the Donetsk branch of the Ukrainian Security Service. That by a pure coincidence acted as a "Household Guard" of the wealthiest Ukrainian oligarch. The person who is a Ukrainian not a Russian oligarch to these days. If you plot the intensity of the hostilities in the very beginning over the map of Ukraine it will match to the point the election numbers of the Yanukovitch party. Those results are still considered valid by all parties so this is the real voice of the people.

If a half of the country intensely hate the other half for not being patriotic enough while the latter feel themselves superior due to a higher income that's a certain recipe for disaster.

And now what? What if Ukrainian propaganda in an eye blink is left with no "Russian bear" to brandish around? How does one explains the fact IMF and EU are sick and tired of their funds being quickly and conveniently spirited away into murky private coffers the moment the monies travel over the border instead of being truly used to prop up the economy? Sick and tired to the point both EU and IMF do not want to give any more money. That's not Russian propaganda - these are official quotes from IMF and EU representatives. What does one say to the account that Poroshenko travels around Europe and North America in the thick of the fighting asking for pro bona lethal equipment shipments while his very appointee back home sells the best leftover tanks from the Soviet reserves to Nigeria and Ethiopia? Again not a Russian propaganda - these are official facts. What about near fatal standoff in the very center of Kiev between "patriotic battalions" of the most "patriotic" Ukrainian oligarch and Special Forces sent by Ukrainian President over management changes in the Ukrainian state oil monopoly?

I'd say "Russian bear" is urgently needed in the internal and external Ukrainian political shop talk at the moment.

Edited by IMHO
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32 minutes ago, IMHO said:

kinophile,

I don't buy the point the situation was artificially created by Russia.

But the same grassroots xenophobia was growing in Ukraine. Easterners...Westerners...

Oh, stop this delirium, injected in Ukraine by Kremlin political technologists as far as in 2004. There is no any "westerners", "centralers", "southerners" and "easterners". There are only citizens, which idetifies themeselve as Ukrainians (and no matter on what language they are speaking and where they aree living) and there are citizens, which identifies themeselve as "soviet people, Russian people, soviet Ukraianins, Malorosians" and want of USSR/Russian Empire renovation or consider Ukraine as "origin part of "Russian world" - they hate all Ukrainish, what do not fit in Soviet hystorical and cultural frames, allowed for "Ukrainan Soviet Sоcialistic Republic". Do you think in Ukrainian army all speaking in Ukrainan language and pray on portray of Stepan Bandera ?

45 minutes ago, IMHO said:

What does one say to the account that Poroshenko travels around Europe and North America in the thick of the fighting asking for pro bona lethal equipment shipments while his very appointee back home sells the best leftover tanks from the Soviet reserves to Nigeria and Ethiopia?

Poroshenko sold "best leftover tanks" ? Are you shure ? Not Kuchma, Yushchenko and Yanukovich ? Here statistic: http://glavcom.ua/publications/ukrajina-vtrachaje-poziciji-na-svitovomu-rinku-ozbrojen-zvit-za-2015-rik-367990.html

2013 year - sold 50 tanks and 150 APCs, 2014 year 20-30 tanks and 20-30 APCs, 2015 - 15 tanks (and +5 new BM Oplots) and 30 new BTR-3 APCs. Copmare this with hundreds of sold armor in previous years. Why do yo lie here ? 

 

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2 hours ago, kraze said:

1.5 mln inhabitants somehow take all the free space and russians have nowhere else to put their tanks and artillery? I guess that's why they have to shell ukrainian positions from inside Donetsk.

Ukrainian MoD unequivocally stated Ukraine attacked DNR positions. You need a proof link? If you plot the ranges from Avdiivka industrial complex where UKR attacked for "below 100mm heavy weapons" (would be 81mm mortar) all of it would fall within Donetsk. Do you really believe UKR forces expected no response? And once you attack the gears of war kick in on both sides whether above or below 100mm. Like you shoot someone and after he draws his gun to defend you bitterly complain about him having a gun in the hand. You either want a war, you act and expect to be acted upon within the logic of war. Or you want peace, you mind your business then you have every right to cry foul if the other side misbehaves. Not so funny thing is Ukraine wants war quite officially but somehow desires no opposition to the actions.

2 hours ago, kraze said:

Oh come on dude, we are on a CMBS forum, you are not fooling anyone here with "local militia" riding T72B3s, MTLBMs and Vympels, while russkies in UN and PACE, who have "nothing to do" with this, keep dictating what laws Ukraine should and should not make OR ELSE. Try forums where people can't tell T72 variants apart or don't know OOBs and are just naive.

Certainly I wouldn't argue here.

2 hours ago, kraze said:

Nagorno-Karabah - filled with russian "peacekeepers". Transnistria - filled with russian "peacekeepers". South Ossetia and Abkhazia - filled with russian "peacekeepers".

Georgia: report of the Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia of the Council of the European Union. Chapter two "The Conflict in Georgia in August 2008": "The shelling of Tskhinvali by the Georgian armed forces during the night of 7 to 8 August 2008 marked the beginning of the large-scale armed conflict in Georgia..."

Transnistria: Would you be so kind as to give the national composition of the Transnistria's population vis a vis Moldova's? Specifically the fact that Russians and Ukrainians have almost equal (within two percentage points) share :) Would you enlighten us on the number of Ukrainian volunteers that fought for Transnistria? How many of them received Transnistria's decorations for the combat valour? What was the role of Ukrainian "radical right organization" UNA-UNSO in fighting for Transnistria? The wording is direct from a U-Penn academic study :) You may forget but back then it was Ukrainian AND Russian volunteers fighting for Transnistria :)

Nagorny Karabakh: Would you provide your version of events and order of battles? What about current composition of forces of Azerbaijan and Karabakh/Armenia? How "Russian peacekeepers" dominate the military balance now? :) Because you probably missed but there's no peacekeeping force whatsoever :) Both Armenia and Azerbaijan oppose nor Russia is eager to come to fray lest it spoils good relations it enjoys with both countries.

PS May I charge some educational rates? :) Coursera's are fine with me :)

Edited by IMHO
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2 hours ago, Haiduk said:

We not believe, we see enemy troops, armed by Russia and supplied by Russia on our land and fight them - and no matter who are they - locals, Russians, European or South American left-radicals, volunteers or regulars. [...] "1,5 mln of inhabitants", when cried on rallies "Russsia! Russia!" and "Putin, put troops !", now have to blame themeselve, that war have came to their homes

Haiduk, you see your patriotic duty here in fighting secessionist forces. I mean no irony when I say "patriotic" here. Irrespective of where they get their arms, people of Donbass and Luhansk see their moral duty in protecting their homes with their lives. And reading your words I would say they have every rationale to do so. What I'm trying to say it never hurts to see the facts even through the lense of patriotic duty. What would happen if Ukrainian forces overrun DNR/LNR now? Bloody massacre. Could YOU expect to be able to do so? I believe it's highly improbable. Can DNR/LNR and their sympathizers rationally drive the situation to a total military victory over Ukraine? I hope they don't because by the time it ever comes within grasp it won't be 35% of Ukrainians but rather full 100%. So what was the point in harvesting a new crop of deaths and destruction after so many months of relative calm? Ukrainian actions do not pass points two through six out of full eight of them in Powell Doctrine. And beyond that the attack puts Avdiivka's population and a critical asset of Ukrainian share of Donbass economy in certain danger. However "real Ukrainian patriots" distrust Donbass population even on their side of the line of control for being"Russian sympathizers" they're still your compatriots or at least that's what Ukraine desires. Not to mention here that it's total mess of pulling the tiger's tail with no back-up in case the tiger wakes up. One can rationalize if not approve destructive actions if real life goals are attainable but when they are not... Senseless waste of human lives.

2 hours ago, Haiduk said:

So, remain this Russian media fairytales about "desperated coalminers", which "Kievan junta want exteminate for Russian languge" for Russian forums.

Haiduk, I try to limit the intake of "Russian media fairytales" just to minimum minimorum required to understand what's being fed to laymen. It's pretty poisonous and I mean it.

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Statistic from Joint Control and Coordination Center of ceasefire questions - for five days of fight, enemy have launched on outskirts of Avdiiivka and on city itself about 7500 of ammunition from 82 mm to 152 mm and "Grad" MLRS. This is equal by 8 trains.

Yesterday in 17-30 enemy again made probe with 20-30 men with artillery and mortars support on own lost position, but were repelled.

Interest detail - when 29th Jan DNR troops was retreating from "Almaz" position, they blew up several own SP-howitserz. Russian volunteer "Ol'khon" said about this (on screen with red underlines): filming victorious videos, don't forget to show one moron from "DNR Internal Troops" /looks like this about 100th mot.rifle brigade, which also playes a role of Internal troops/, on background of SP-guns, blown up during retreating, which he have ordered to place on forward position on direct fireand refuled with summer diesel in winter time /SP-guns just couldn't start engines and retreat with all/

Also this theme on Lostarmor: 

- Alexandr, its remains /of SP-guns/ now controlling by 72nd brigade of VSU. It's a tip for you, but today we can "ask off" them from here /means DNR forces will try push off UKR troops from this position at 4th Feb/

- Vasiliy, damn. What сan its do on "Almaz" ?

- Alexandr, this question to f...g moron, which have rode its out there and keep its there

 

7PJn57Xe2e4.jpg

G5mthUgt-ys.jpg

Edited by Haiduk
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