Separatist push/Ukraine shove back

[JUAN DEAG]

20 minutes ago, DMS said:

Great salaries of "citizen mercenaries" are 15 000 rubles per month, 250$. Not much money for Russia.

There is a very tough economic situation in Donetsk, it was one of the poorest provinces in Ukraine even before the war. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that criminal organizations have taken over the government and steal people's businesses, cars, fancy homes, apartments, etc. DPR patriots also engaged in heavy looting of supermarkets and other locations. After that, a majority of Ukrainians fled (and many Russians to), for fear of ethnic and political cleansing by DPR heroes. Railway and mining industry were stripped and smuggled to Russia, and miners have gone unpaid by the criminal government. During heavy fighting, citizens of Donetsk cannot travel to Ukraine controlled territory to collect their pension. As a result, unemployment is extremely high, and the only way to feed family and earn any money at all is to join the terrorists. 

Most of the ideologically motivated soldiers come from neighboring Russia because they turn on Russian state-owned TV and see "Ukrainian Nazis are murdering grandmothers in their sleep with artillery!" so they travel to Ukraine illegally only to get buried in a foreign country because of the lies of their own government. I actually feel pretty bad for a lot of those guys.

43 minutes ago, DMS said:

While in DNR there is no draft, only volunteers.

No one wants to starve or have their loyalty questioned by criminals with guns (there are plenty videos of DPR torturing their own citizens, but I will not link it here for obvious reasons, it's not difficult to find). Besides, the difference is made up by Russian volunteers, Russian paramilitaries, and Russian soldiers.

1 hour ago, DMS said:

So question is why DNR lost much more men

Wearing a helmet instead of a ski mask can go a long way. And as VladimirTarasov mentioned, sometimes God is on the side with the best artillery. 

1 hour ago, DMS said:

if they really lost more men

EXPOSED!!! 

56 minutes ago, DMS said:

But you are right, those men in forward position didn't fight to last man and retreated quickly. Because of poor motivation or because it was planned. (And their decision war right, I think.

According to both separatist and Ukrainian sources, Ukrainians are still there.  You're such an ideologue to the point where you can't even admit that Ukrainian troops can take territory from invincible separatists and that invincible separatists are capable of taking heavy casualties. I'm not even going to get into how blatantly wrong you were about the origin of the pictures of the dead separatists I posted in response to Nefron's skepticism about Donetsk Airport battle. Just goes to show how detached from reality you are.

1 hour ago, DMS said:

I am intersted how Haiduk and JUAN DEAG explain it.

By not misconstruing the facts, unlike you.  Anyways, Haiduk is the expert here, not me, I'll leave it to him to show you how wrong you actually are.

[JUAN DEAG]

15 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Okay I know this, but typically this aggressive patrols are followed by offensive plans...  ...In this case it would make no sense to recon like this if you aren't going to gather intelligence for an offensive... 

Russian doctrine calls for a constant incessant attack and to only rest in order to regroup, but obviously this is not 1945, and in modern warfare constant attack is not always possible. As I stated before, this could have been a surprise/diversionary action and/or to reconnoiter enemy positions for an attack at a later date. It does not always have to happen instantly.

15 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Reasons being:

1) You just initiated a battle

2) You are risking much more than the worth for this scenario

1) Recon is supposed to do its job no matter how intense the combat happens to be.

2) High risk, high reward.

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, DMS said:

Steve, DNR soldiers report the same about Ukrainians.

They also say they are baby crucifying fascists, but that doesn't make it so

For sure Ukraine has problems within its ranks.  This is static warfare and that always produces problems.  But the evidence (I mean the real evidence, not Russian propaganda) shows that the fighting spirit of DPR/LPR forces has been consistently poor throughout the war.  I have explained why this is understandable.  It's historically consistent.

1 hour ago, DMS said:

Poor morale, poor training e.t.c. No approoval of great motivation and patriotism from the other side. By the way, Ukraine has conscript forces! While in DNR there is no draft, only volunteers. Great salaries of "citizen mercenaries" are 15 000 rubles per month, 250$. Not much money for Russia. Good enough for DNR. I don't think that money is the main motivation. Man can easily earn twice more without any risk. Specialists and advisors get much more, but they are few.

As has already pointed out, this is not accurate.  There is a lot of legal and illegal pressures for people to be in the DPR/LPR forces, as well as plenty of desperation.  For example, the large number of Russian prisoners who were released from jail to fight in Russia were not conscripts, but really... do you think that gives the person a good spirit to fight in someone else's land for someone else's benefit?  Hardly.

Conscription is a more straight forward process with more predictable outcome.

1 hour ago, DMS said:

But you are right, those men in forward position didn't fight to last man and retreated quickly. Because of poor motivation or because it was planned. (And their decision war right, I think. Single squad can't stop mechanised platoon, no need to die for an observation post) So question is why DNR lost much more men, if they really lost more men. There was no claudron for defenders, no use of vehicles against infantry without AT weapons, no artillery superiority. I am intersted how Haiduk and JUAN DEAG explain it.

As JUAN DEAG right said, you can start by dropping your bias and look at the facts.  If you can not do that then there's no hope of you understanding what is really going on.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Here's another way to look at things.

In the Summer of 2014 Ukraine launched a massive offensive against the "separatists".  It did so with a very poorly equipped, poorly led, and poorly trained military that was backed up by a horrifically corrupt and dysfunctional (non-functional in cases!) logistics system which was overseen by an even worse organized government.  On top of that the military and political establishments of Ukraine were riddled with people reporting to FSB and GRU. 

At the time the DPR/LPR was at it's motivational height.  The radical Russian nationalists made up a big chunk of the fighting force and they were motivated to fight for a greater Russia (not a better Donbas).  Chechen groups eager to prove themselves to Kadyrov and Putin were also there, fired up and motivated to fight.  And of course there was plenty of Russian soldiers in the fight too.  And of course, misled and misinformed Ukrainians were also honestly volunteering to fight for their homeland.  All of which believed that Russia had their back and therefore nothing could stop them.

Yet The Ukrainian force quickly rolled up the DPR/LPR lines and in two months had all but effectively cut off the entire DPR/LPR from it's primary supply base... Russia.  This despite the fact that Russian military forces had been actively engaged on a medium scale starting in June/July and had neutralized Ukrainian airpower by flooding Ukraine with anti-air missiles (including the infamous Buk).

During the large scale Russian counter attack in August/September there were major defeats of the Ukrainian forces, but they put up a good fight in general and managed to reform a cohesive line south of Donetsk while in the north and center their lines did not break in any major way.  The Russian counter attack began to falter and then stopped in large part because Russia felt it had achieved enough to "freeze" the situation while it still held the advantage.

The battle for the airport continued for months despite massive effort by Russian and militia forces to retake it.  If they could have taken it sooner they would have.  A similar story happened in Debaltseve on a larger scale.  Since then there's been pretty much no territorial gains by DPR/LPR, yet there's been territorial loss.  Not a lot, but pretty much every time Ukraine has decided to take something they have taken it with disproportionally smaller losses (when the DPR/LPR even bothered to put up a fight).

Sooooo... this battle we are talking about now is not out of character for this conflict.  I see nothing surprising or unexplainable in the descriptions that Haiduk, the free press, and Ukrainian government have presented so far.  That's becuse I've been paying attention to what is really going on

Steve

[DMS]

 

2 minutes ago, JUAN DEAG said:

According to both separatist and Ukrainian sources, Ukrainians are still there.  You're such an ideologue to the point where you can't even admit that Ukrainian troops can take territory from invincible separatists and that invincible separatists are capable of taking heavy casualties. I'm not even going to get into how blatantly wrong you were about the origin of the pictures of the dead separatists I posted in response to Nefron's skepticism about Donetsk Airport battle. Just goes to show how detached from reality you are.

By not misconstruing the facts, unlike you.  Anyways, Haiduk is the expert here, not me, I'll leave it to him to show you how wrong you actually are.

You didn't understand, I said that DNR unit that was in forward trench retreated when attack had started. Question was why do you believe in such favourable loss ratio if defenders succesfully retreated through the forest and there was no claudron.

Just now, Battlefront.com said:

As has already pointed out, this is not accurate.  There is a lot of legal and illegal pressures for people to be in the DPR/LPR forces, as well as plenty of desperation.  For example, the large number of Russian prisoners who were released from jail to fight in Russia were not conscripts, but really... do you think that gives the person a good spirit to fight in someone else's land for someone else's benefit?  Hardly.

I wouldn't believe your source. Or may be I know nothing, as FSB censores information? Than that FSB guys are super professional!

I think that it is creative Ukranian version of ShtrafBat WW 2 era fairy tales.  

Just now, Battlefront.com said:

For sure Ukraine has problems within its ranks.  This is static warfare and that always produces problems.  But the evidence (I mean the real evidence, not Russian propaganda) shows that the fighting spirit of DPR/LPR forces has been consistently poor throughout the war.  I have explained why this is understandable.  It's historically consistent.

 

When face-to-face infantry combat took place, in airport or at Saur-Mogila, DNR infantry usually won the fight, Ukrainians became good in artillery and ATGM use, but motivated infantry never was their strong point. It is the fact - Ukrainians lost close combat in airport. You can't say that it is Russian propaganda. Ukrainians tell stories about thousands of killed, Russian specnaz and human waves attacks, but it doesn't change the facts.

[HUSKER2142]

2 hours ago, JUAN DEAG said:

Most of the ideologically motivated soldiers come from neighboring Russia because they turn on Russian state-owned TV and see "Ukrainian Nazis are murdering grandmothers in their sleep with artillery!" so they travel to Ukraine illegally only to get buried in a foreign country because of the lies of their own government. I actually feel pretty bad for a lot of those guys.

I personally know 3 people who are citizens of the Russian Federation, went to fight on the side of the nationalist Ukrainian battalions against the DNR / LNR, only because they do not like the Russian authorities. Conversely, they will never return. I personally know two people who are citizens of Israel and England went to war on the side of the nationalist Ukrainian battalions against the DNR / LNR because they hate the russians. The last two were my surprise, I was familiar with them 10 years before the events of 2014.

^{Я знаю лично 3 человек которые являются гражданами РФ , уехали воевать на стороне националистических батальонов украины против ДНР/ЛНР , только из-за того что им не нравится Российская власть . Обратно они уже никогда не вернутся . Я знаю лично 2 человек которые являются гражданами Израиля и Англии , уехали воевать на стороне националистических батальонов украины против ДНР/ЛНР потому что они ненавидят Русских . Последние двое стали для меня сюрпризом , я с ними был знаком 10 лет до событий 2014 .}

[Battlefront.com]

2 hours ago, DMS said:

 

You didn't understand, I said that DNR unit that was in forward trench retreated when attack had started. Question was why do you believe in such favourable loss ratio if defenders succesfully retreated through the forest and there was no claudron.

The losses are spread out over several days.  Ukrainians speak about defeating several counter attacks, so IF they did retreat without much losses in one spot that doesn't mean they didn't suffer losses in others.

2 hours ago, DMS said:

I wouldn't believe your source. Or may be I know nothing, as FSB censores information? Than that FSB guys are super professional!

I think that it is creative Ukranian version of ShtrafBat WW 2 era fairy tales.  

Except that some of the sources are from DPR, Russian military, and a Western journalist who was conducting an investigation of living conditions within the Russian prison system by interviewing prisoners, prison guards, prison administrators, prisoner families, and prisoner advocacy groups.  But yes, I'm sure you know a lot more than they do.

2 hours ago, DMS said:

When face-to-face infantry combat took place, in airport or at Saur-Mogila, DNR infantry usually won the fight, Ukrainians became good in artillery and ATGM use, but motivated infantry never was their strong point. It is the fact - Ukrainians lost close combat in airport. You can't say that it is Russian propaganda. Ukrainians tell stories about thousands of killed, Russian specnaz and human waves attacks, but it doesn't change the facts.

Sure, and the Soviets took Berlin in 1945 and finished the war.  But they also lost 1,000,000 soldiers in the process.

The Donetsk airport is not something the DPR/Russia should be proud of.  They fought for the airport for almost 4 months.  A tiny piece of ground almost completely cut off from Ukrainian lines.  Militias, Russian special forces, and heavy backing of support services failed to take it time and time again.  Until the final push, which caused the collapse of most of the rest of main terminal, the Ukrainian losses had been relatively light.  But as often happens, in the last phase of an assault the defender gets trapped and losses go up dramatically.

I don't know why pro-DPR/LPR/Russian people are so proud of the airport battle.  It was a poorly fought battle.

Saur-Mogila is also nothing to be all that proud about.  It was a "see-saw" battle which saw the hill change hands something like 8 times.  Ukraine ultimately had to abandon the position because Russian forces had driven a wedge deep behind the lines and towards Ilovaisk, thus making all positions to the east untenable.  Whatever fighting was going on there then became completely irrelevant because Ukraine had to leave or die in place because of actions (by regular Russian Army, mind you) compelled them to leave.

Steve

[JUAN DEAG]

3 hours ago, HUSKER2142 said:

I personally know 3 people who are citizens of the Russian Federation, went to fight on the side of the nationalist Ukrainian battalions against the DNR / LNR, only because they do not like the Russian authorities. Conversely, they will never return. I personally know two people who are citizens of Israel and England went to war on the side of the nationalist Ukrainian battalions against the DNR / LNR because they hate the russians. The last two were my surprise, I was familiar with them 10 years before the events of 2014.

^{Я знаю лично 3 человек которые являются гражданами РФ , уехали воевать на стороне националистических батальонов украины против ДНР/ЛНР , только из-за того что им не нравится Российская власть . Обратно они уже никогда не вернутся . Я знаю лично 2 человек которые являются гражданами Израиля и Англии , уехали воевать на стороне националистических батальонов украины против ДНР/ЛНР потому что они ненавидят Русских . Последние двое стали для меня сюрпризом , я с ними был знаком 10 лет до событий 2014 .}

Thanks for sharing. That's unfortunate that they cannot return to Russia once the war is over, at least as long as Putin is in power. Apparently, it is still difficult to get citizenship for people that came from Russia or Belarus that joined Ukrainian volunteer battalions, even though Ukrainian parliament simplified laws to allow Russian and Belorussian volunteers to become permanent Ukrainian citizens.

[VladimirTarasov]

3 hours ago, JUAN DEAG said:

Thanks for sharing. That's unfortunate that they cannot return to Russia once the war is over, at least as long as Putin is in power. Apparently, it is still difficult to get citizenship for people that came from Russia or Belarus that joined Ukrainian volunteer battalions, even though Ukrainian parliament simplified laws to allow Russian and Belorussian volunteers to become permanent Ukrainian citizens.

I'm glad they can't, the government isn't the only thing that's holding them back from coming. 

[DMS]

11 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

The losses are spread out over several days.  Ukrainians speak about defeating several counter attacks, so IF they did retreat without much losses in one spot that doesn't mean they didn't suffer losses in others.

Except that some of the sources are from DPR, Russian military, and a Western journalist who was conducting an investigation of living conditions within the Russian prison system by interviewing prisoners, prison guards, prison administrators, prisoner families, and prisoner advocacy groups.  But yes, I'm sure you know a lot more than they do.

Sure, and the Soviets took Berlin in 1945 and finished the war.  But they also lost 1,000,000 soldiers in the process.

The Donetsk airport is not something the DPR/Russia should be proud of.  They fought for the airport for almost 4 months.  A tiny piece of ground almost completely cut off from Ukrainian lines.  Militias, Russian special forces, and heavy backing of support services failed to take it time and time again.  Until the final push, which caused the collapse of most of the rest of main terminal, the Ukrainian losses had been relatively light.  But as often happens, in the last phase of an assault the defender gets trapped and losses go up dramatically.

I don't know why pro-DPR/LPR/Russian people are so proud of the airport battle.  It was a poorly fought battle.

Saur-Mogila is also nothing to be all that proud about.  It was a "see-saw" battle which saw the hill change hands something like 8 times.  Ukraine ultimately had to abandon the position because Russian forces had driven a wedge deep behind the lines and towards Ilovaisk, thus making all positions to the east untenable.  Whatever fighting was going on there then became completely irrelevant because Ukraine had to leave or die in place because of actions (by regular Russian Army, mind you) compelled them to leave.

Steve

And why it was completely cut? Ukraine is 40 million country with huge army, that had a lot of Soviet tanks and artillery. Russia's help is limited by supply routs, that must be consealed. Donetsk is a large city where are a lot of peolpe with cameras in their phones, and Russian army units support is limited. You say it like Ukrainians heroically defended being outnumbered. No, separatists were outnumbered, Ukrainians had more personell, more artillery, more tanks. Ukraine also has special forces, volunteers, foreign "volunteers" (mainly snipers). But they lacked good infantry. Solid building of airport limited their usuall tactick, to shell everything. And they lost. DNR also had few people, that could fight in such conditions. Victory wasn't easy.

At Saur-Mogila first attack was stopped by 9 men. They were rotated soon, but initially there was 9 men. Against battalion or its forward unit.

1 million? Overall losses in Berlin operation, including wounded? Germans lost more finally, with prisoners. (in that battle)

By the way, there was something common with Berlin tactick. RKKA soldiers used FOG-2 flamethrowers (they were static, not handheld) and M-13 rockets, set in buldings. DNR militia used UR-83P rocket to blow up defenders of DAP.

[Battlefront.com]

2 hours ago, DMS said:

And why it was completely cut? Ukraine is 40 million country with huge army, that had a lot of Soviet tanks and artillery. Russia's help is limited by supply routs, that must be consealed. Donetsk is a large city where are a lot of peolpe with cameras in their phones, and Russian army units support is limited. You say it like Ukrainians heroically defended being outnumbered. No, separatists were outnumbered, Ukrainians had more personell, more artillery, more tanks. Ukraine also has special forces, volunteers, foreign "volunteers" (mainly snipers). But they lacked good infantry. Solid building of airport limited their usuall tactick, to shell everything. And they lost. DNR also had few people, that could fight in such conditions. Victory wasn't easy.

Sure, the Ukrainian Army sucked (on the whole) in 2014.  I've already stated that very clearly.  But you are distracting from the point.  And that is at the tactical level the DPR/Russia outnumbered Ukraine at the airport.  They had more heavy support as well as direct support from some of the best Russian soldiers that exist.  They had the Ukrainians "pinned in" very well.  And yet it took the DPR/Russians 4 months of determined fighting to take this utterly useless, totally pointless piece of ground and at much greater cost to their own forces.  That is nothing to be proud of.

On the Ukrainian side it's a mixed thing.  They should be proud that despite all of Ukraine's major problems within its military that it was able to hold out for 4 months no matter what Russia threw at it.  Very proud.  On the other hand, the piece of land being defended had no value and a good argument can be made that Ukraine should have withdrawn much, much earlier or should have violated Minsk 1 (as DPR/Russia was doing) and enlarged the front to include the airport.

At best you can say that neither side should be proud of the outcome.  But to say that DPR/Russia has something to brag about shows an extremely poor understanding of what actually went on there.

2 hours ago, DMS said:

At Saur-Mogila first attack was stopped by 9 men. They were rotated soon, but initially there was 9 men. Against battalion or its forward unit.

Sometimes small numbers make a big difference.  Luck has as much to do with it.  It is why studying war is so interesting.  But to talk about an incident like this as being anything more than a fluke shows either ignorance of a desperation to find something to be proud of.

2 hours ago, DMS said:

1 million? Overall losses in Berlin operation, including wounded? Germans lost more finally, with prisoners. (in that battle)

The point is that you need to be careful about how you define "victory".  If you define it only by the end result, that is fine.  But don't be surprised if someone challenges that point of view.

2 hours ago, DMS said:

By the way, there was something common with Berlin tactick. RKKA soldiers used FOG-2 flamethrowers (they were static, not handheld) and M-13 rockets, set in buldings. DNR militia used UR-83P rocket to blow up defenders of DAP.

It's a common tactic when attacking a defender in a built up area.  The US, for example, uses Javelins and TOW missiles to conduct pinpoint strikes against hardened structures.  Sometimes soldiers get very creative and come up with improvised means to clear buildings.  In the early days of insurgency in Iraq a Marine unit discovered they could put a small explosive charge on a propane tank, open the valve, and roll it into a fortified building.  The result was a very crude thermobaric bomb.  It was considered quite effective.

Steve

[VladimirTarasov]

3 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

They had more heavy support as well as direct support from some of the best Russian soldiers that exist.

That sounds like some really bad propaganda coming from the Ukrainian side... 

6 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Sure, the Ukrainian Army sucked (on the whole) in 2014.

They sucked, but their units weren't really that worse than thrown together locals, operating under say Russian advisers... Majority of the units were barely trained, motivation is what kept them working most of the times. And let's not forget Ukraine sent in not only motor rifle troops but VDV units as well. Let's not throw away the laws of war... If the DPR was better it would have done better than they did during the time. Ukraine did heavily outnumber the separatist forces. 

8 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

They should be proud that despite all of Ukraine's major problems within its military that it was able to hold out for 4 months no matter what Russia threw at it.

You see... If Russia actually through forth a legitimate motor rifle battalion into that battle It'd be over way quicker than 4 months. The battle for the airport is more different than you'd expect. we're talking about something the size of a legitimate airport. It could have gone way faster if it was a legitimate Russian unit that undertook the task. 

Sure the Ukrainians were able to repel small platoon attacks during the initial raids however not much to be proud of, the Defender has certain undeniable advantages... Anyways there were pauses and ceasefires which dragged out the battle longer than it should have. Then of course once the separatists controlled the terminal, the Ukrainians launched a final assault if you remember. DPR repelled that as well, which ensured the victory of the DPR... So it's not a small victory you make it out to be, it was hard fought for and a symbolic victory. 

[Haiduk]

On 27.12.2016 at 10:12 AM, DMS said:

Haiduk, how you would explain such loss ratio? Ukrainians were in attack, enemy was dug in in the forest.

Ratio almost the same. Read separatists posts in social networks. They say about LNR forces have too few troops there and most of them have retreated on southern positions (four were killed on "Kikimora"). Biggest losses suffered group of "Shaytan" (3rd company commander) i first day, when they were advancing to third enemy position - five killed (with 19th Dec - six). As minimum three of them were killed from bullets hit, other from artillery and mortar fire. Also most of their group (platoon +/-) were wounded and shell-shocked. 152 mm caliber used not often, you can see this in OSCE reports. It's not enough to shot many shells, need to hit targets. Real war is not CM, when spotter with 90 % probability will maintain precise hit. You saw separatists video above, when our artillery is firing several dozens of shells with UAV adjustment. Did you see at least one direct hit in the trench ? Just two close hits. No casualties. Why separatists artillery and mortars should be better and like in CM will impact 60 % of shells in circle with diameter 16 m around target ? %)

Photos of highest industrial building possibly on outskirt of Novoluhans'ke settlement, which was taken under real not only map control several days ago.

Fighters of 54th brigade somewhere on positions on Svitlodarsk bulge

Edited December 28, 2016 by Haiduk

[VladimirTarasov]

Novoluhans'ke was in the neutral zone was it not? 

[Haiduk]

45 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Novoluhans'ke was in the neutral zone was it not? 

Nominally under Ukarine control, actually was in grey zone. And this town was a gate for contrabanda. Also at south outskirt situates huge pigfarm, which was supplying DNR with meat. Some military are writing, that control over this source of food also have played some role in decision to enter in the town.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Haiduk

[VladimirTarasov]

1 hour ago, Haiduk said:

Nominally under Ukarine control, actually was in grey zone. And this town was a gate for contrabanda. Also at south outskirt situates huge pigfarm, which was supplying DNR with meat. Some military are writing, that control over this source of food also have played some role in decision to enter in the town.

I see why it was important than, I appreciate the info yet again. So the Ukrainian offensive is over now correct?

[Battlefront.com]

11 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

That sounds like some really bad propaganda coming from the Ukrainian side... 

There is documentary evidence that regular Russian units, including Spetsnaz, were involved in the battle at various points.  I think we can presume that at a minimum forward observation and intel services were fully engaged.

11 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

They sucked, but their units weren't really that worse than thrown together locals, operating under say Russian advisers... Majority of the units were barely trained, motivation is what kept them working most of the times.

This was also largely true for the Ukrainian side, especially with the volunteer units.  However, at key locations the DPR/LPR could count on Russian units which were superior in every way to Ukrainian units.  The number and size of the Russian forces depends heavily on the specific timeframe, but since the start of this mess it was never zero.

11 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

And let's not forget Ukraine sent in not only motor rifle troops but VDV units as well. Let's not throw away the laws of war... If the DPR was better it would have done better than they did during the time. Ukraine did heavily outnumber the separatist forces. 

Yes, for sure on the whole this is true.  It is why Ukraine was able to do as well as it did when looking at the big picture of the war.  However, that does not necessarily apply to specific battles.  The airport battle is the one being discussed in the context of my comments.

11 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

You see... If Russia actually through forth a legitimate motor rifle battalion into that battle It'd be over way quicker than 4 months.

For sure.  I should have said "what Russia chose to throw at it".  It was in Russia's interests to take the airport intact.  It failed.  It was in Russia's interests to deny Ukraine a propaganda victory for 4 months.  It failed.  So in the end it got a useless chunk of rubble and the Ukrainians a sense that they could stand up to Russia's aggression.  Not a victory of any value in my informed opinion.

11 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Sure the Ukrainians were able to repel small platoon attacks during the initial raids however not much to be proud of, the Defender has certain undeniable advantages...

Of course, but attackers also have advantages too.  Such as choosing the time and place to attack and what forces to attack with.  And the more the attacker knows about the defender, the more advantage the attacker has.  Also, if the attacker controls the the defender's supply and reinforcement routes, that too is in the favor of the attacker.  Really bad weather also favors the attacker if the defender is able to rotate in fresh, rested, warm troops.

The attackers had cumulatively more advantages than the defenders, yet it took 4 months to make a success of it.

11 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Anyways there were pauses and ceasefires which dragged out the battle longer than it should have.

True, but pauses and ceasefires are a sign of the attacker having serious problems.  Attackers don't let defenders rest and restock because they think it makes things easier for the next assault, do they?  Therefore, the pauses and ceasefires are not a good excuse for a lack of quick progress.

11 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Then of course once the separatists controlled the terminal, the Ukrainians launched a final assault if you remember. DPR repelled that as well, which ensured the victory of the DPR... So it's not a small victory you make it out to be, it was hard fought for and a symbolic victory. 

It was a small and meaningless, if not outright embarrassing, victory.  It was turned into a "symbolic victory" by propaganda and distortion of reality.  Which is why I say, objectively, this is not something pro-DPR people should feel pride in.  I think Ukraine has more right to feel pride in the results, and yet they lost.

Steve

[Kinophile]

To clarify for myself -  I thought this was a DPR  fight,  with Russian support.

LNR were also involved? On the eastern flanks? Or mixed into the line? 

How integrated are DPR and LNR units with each other? If it's 'not very much' but they still share a front line does that not make  them more likely to fall back? Because they are not sure what their comrades are doing/capable of? 

My impression is that LNR are generally less offensive/aggressive, less mechanized than DPR, less Arty heavy, fewer actual units/soldiers.

And then because of all this they are more reliant on Russian support and combat units, more likely to be used as light infantry/fodder in larger battles? 

[JUAN DEAG]

On 12/27/2016 at 9:13 PM, VladimirTarasov said:

I'm glad they can't, the government isn't the only thing that's holding them back from coming. 

"This is not our war, this is not your war, this is not the war of 20-year old paratroopers sent out there. This is Vladimir Putin’s war." -Boris Nemtsov, shortly before assassination

Russians like you confuse Putin for someone who embodies the Russian state and claims to represent all Russians. Going against the will of Putin is not anti-Russian, and it's certainly not unpatriotic. Putin consistently gives Russians a bad name in the eyes of the world because of his own choices. It's not ordinary Russians that ordered Crimea to be seized, it was not ordinary Russians who tore two provinces from Georgia, it was not ordinary Russians that started an undeclared war in eastern Ukraine, it is not ordinary Russians that have billions in offshore banks, it is not ordinary Russians who support a genocidal dictator in Syria...

It is ordinary Russians that deal with western sanctions, it is ordinary Russian soldiers that die in Putin's undeclared war in Ukraine, it is ordinary Russian seniors that see their pensions lowered every year, it is ordinary Russians whose taxes go to build Ramzan Kadyrov new ski resorts, it is ordinary Russians in Siberia and the Far East that cannot even be guaranteed consistent water and gas, it is ordinary Russians who cannot express their grievances without being beaten and imprisoned by OMOH or any other protest removal service in the area, it is ordinary Russians who are fooled everyday by their state media, it is ordinary Russians that pay 1.4 billion dollars to keep that same propaganda running...

"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." -Edward Abbey

Vlad, it is their homeland and it's their inalienable right to live in Russia again, regardless of what you think of them.

 

 

[JUAN DEAG]

@VladimirTarasov 

Also, would you be willing to do a Quick Battle or any other scenario with me, if you're not too busy of course?

[JUAN DEAG]

@kinophile 

Svitlodarsk is within the province of Donetsk. So mostly DPR troops.

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, kinophile said:

To clarify for myself -  I thought this was a DPR  fight,  with Russian support.

LNR were also involved? On the eastern flanks? Or mixed into the line? 

How integrated are DPR and LNR units with each other? If it's 'not very much' but they still share a front line does that not make  them more likely to fall back? Because they are not sure what their comrades are doing/capable of? 

My impression is that LNR are generally less offensive/aggressive, less mechanized than DPR, less Arty heavy, fewer actual units/soldiers.

And then because of all this they are more reliant on Russian support and combat units, more likely to be used as light infantry/fodder in larger battles? 

Svitlodarsk bulge passes through administrative border of Luhansk and Donetsk regions. So, in the battle both DNR and LNR were involved and reportedly some Russian artillery units and some infantry units, masked under "militants" (but this unconfirmed on 100 %). DNR and LNR arn't integrated. This is very strange phenomenon, if we will remember so called "Novorossia" project. Even separatists are explaining this with different political influenses - so called "contest of different Kremlin towers". Though, in military sense both DNR ("1st people militia corps" )and LNR ("2nd people militia corps") subordinates to Russian 12th reserve command of Southern miliitary district with HQ in Rostov. Each separatist brigade and battalion has own shadow Russian commander. 1st Corps looks stronger then 2nd, thogh both have enough armor and artillery, but LNR has more separate territorial defense battalions which have less armor, than motor-rifle battalions in brigades. 1st Corps even gave own 7th motor-rifle brigade under LNR command - exactly this brigade mostly participated in the battle for "Kikimora" forest. Though, as say separatists, 7th brigade is  worst among whole DNR and LNR units. 

Edited December 29, 2016 by Haiduk

[HerrTom]

Haven't the LNR units consistently shown poor performance throughout the war, regardless of their equipment?  I thought this caused a somewhat hush-hush row when the Russians had to bail out several LNR units in the east last year.

[VladimirTarasov]

9 hours ago, JUAN DEAG said:

Also, would you be willing to do a Quick Battle or any other scenario with me, if you're not too busy of course?

I'm having troubles with upgrading to 4.0 computer related I believe. I'll let you know when I can. 

 

[JUAN DEAG]

1 hour ago, VladimirTarasov said:

I'm having troubles with upgrading to 4.0 computer related I believe. I'll let you know when I can. 

Ok