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kinophile

Separatist push/Ukraine shove back

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10 hours ago, kinophile said:

Could you be in more bad taste? 

Try harder, no do.

Regardless of nationality, 3 families have had their son/brother/father tortured and executed and had it FILMED AND DISTRIBUTED just before goddamn Christmas.

 

Shove off to some girlfriend revenge porn website, you morally empty vulture.

 

Troll 1.0

 

 

There's no need to project your own inadequacies to others and I sincerely hope you can come to a realization that there might be other reasons for someone to ask for such graphic videos (videos that yet again showcases the cruelty of pro-Russian combatants) besides one being a 'morally empty vulture'. 

Edited by ParanoidMoron

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12 hours ago, kinophile said:

Could you be in more bad taste? 

Try harder, no do.

Regardless of nationality, 3 families have had their son/brother/father tortured and executed and had it FILMED AND DISTRIBUTED just before goddamn Christmas.

 

Shove off to some girlfriend revenge porn website, you morally empty vulture.

 

Intelligence analysis can be gruesome at times. For example, in order to properly assess chemical warfare issues for the Advanced Tactical Fighter (the program ultimately resulting in the F-22), as the NBC (now CBRN) guy, I had to get a (retch) firm grasp on effects. Let me just say that nothing will unmake your day quite like a giant mustard gas blister on someone's arm encountered unexpectedly in a defense magazine. Proof isn't always pretty, especially when it involves torture or torture and murder. I do understand why you might perceive ParanoidMoron's request as sick (not in the current good sense of the word in street talk), but to me, his request, however off putting to you, is perfectly legitimate.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

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Quick update: it appears Ukrainians have shelled and hit a church(hopefully not on purpose), locals aren't happy about it. 

 

Watched a video of a volunteer from the 25th battalion complain to the government about why the battalion is lacking needed logistical vehicles* for evacuating the wounded and dead... They're using personal vehicles apparently. He said ladas and minivans were being used... Poor guys even if I'm not with the Ukrainian side I still feel bad for them. Anyways looks as if the lines have been stabilized... I'd expect a counter-attack from the separatists sooner or later. 

Edited by VladimirTarasov

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3 hours ago, ParanoidMoron said:

 

There's no need to project your own inadequacies to others and I sincerely hope you can come to a realization that there might be other reasons for someone to ask for such graphic videos (videos that yet again showcases the cruelty of pro-Russian combatants) besides one being a 'morally empty vulture'. 

Yes.  I hope you saw my post in response to Kino's admonishment of you.  Gore is a touchy issue for some and I'd appreciate you cutting him a bit of slack for his (definite) overreaction.

1 hour ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Quick update: it appears Ukrainians have shelled and hit a church(hopefully not on purpose), locals aren't happy about it. 

Given how unhappy the people of Donbas are whenever Russian artillery hits their houses, factories, shops, schools, and hospitals I'm not surprised. 

Seriously, with the thousands of structures destroyed in this conflict so far, why highlight one specific one?

1 hour ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Watched a video of a volunteer from the 25th battalion complain to the government about why the battalion is lacking needed logistical vehicles* for evacuating the wounded and dead... They're using personal vehicles apparently. He said ladas and minivans were being used...

Yup, I saw this too.  This had been a quiet sector of the front for a while and so apparently Ukraine didn't have stuff in position ahead of time.  Then again, soldiers tend to gripe about everything so it has to be taken with a pinch of salt.  Certainly I've seen plenty of griping on the Russian side throughout this conflict.

1 hour ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Poor guys even if I'm not with the Ukrainian side I still feel bad for them. Anyways looks as if the lines have been stabilized... I'd expect a counter-attack from the separatists sooner or later. 

I'd expect something too.  Ukraine scored a pretty good, even though small, victory so far.  As I said before I can't see Russia letting it go unpunished.  Gotta teach those pesky Ukrainians they can't have their land back :D

Steve

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27 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Given how unhappy the people of Donbas are whenever Russian artillery hits their houses, factories, shops, schools, and hospitals I'm not surprised. 

Seriously, with the thousands of structures destroyed in this conflict so far, why highlight one specific one?

Steve, I'm just high lighting it because it's about the current event. No need to almost bash in my brains for that. :D 

29 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Yup, I saw this too.  This had been a quiet sector of the front for a while and so apparently Ukraine didn't have stuff in position ahead of time.  Then again, soldiers tend to gripe about everything so it has to be taken with a pinch of salt.  Certainly I've seen plenty of griping on the Russian side throughout this conflict.

Well it's still something. As I've suspected the Ukrainians are lacking in some areas still. Might be his particular unit however I'd expect the front line troops to be equipped better. 

34 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

I'd expect something too.  Ukraine scored a pretty good, even though small, victory so far.  As I said before I can't see Russia letting it go unpunished.  Gotta teach those pesky Ukrainians they can't have their land back :D

They were able to penetrate some lines of the defense however that's not really a victory... They still need to go further to exploit the success. It does however show they can launch offensives and be successful at it somewhat. Putin's demonic army still has LOS to Ukrainian positions from those posts according to videos online. Ukrainians need to take those positions and I'd label this a success on their part. 

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50 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Steve, I'm just high lighting it because it's about the current event. No need to almost bash in my brains for that. :D 

Sorry, some of the sites I visit are annoying because I have to wade through reports of every roof or car that's been hit by Russian artillery.  I suppose there is some value in someone noting these things, but it's obvious that this is a war and that shelling positions is going to result in damage to infrastructure either deliberately or by accident.  It's understood and doesn't really need to be pointed out that war sucks for civilians.

50 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Well it's still something. As I've suspected the Ukrainians are lacking in some areas still. Might be his particular unit however I'd expect the front line troops to be equipped better. 

Oh sure, they are definitely still lacking.   Certainly this is true on the Russian side of things.  It's even true in big, high budget militaries like the US Army.  The most famous incident in recent times was around 2004/2005 when the military was still using huge numbers of unarmored Humvees.  Bush Admin officials kept saying everything was fine, but it wasn't.  It took a couple of years to get that problem solved.

50 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

They were able to penetrate some lines of the defense however that's not really a victory... They still need to go further to exploit the success. It does however show they can launch offensives and be successful at it somewhat. Putin's demonic army still has LOS to Ukrainian positions from those posts according to videos online. Ukrainians need to take those positions and I'd label this a success on their part. 

From what I understand this is high ground which dominates DPR positions, not Ukrainian positions.  The fact that they have the positions might not make a big problem for the Russian side right now, but it could be a significant problem later on.  In fact, this is the sort of position that Ukraine has been seeking to take back when it decides to attack.  Still no final word on if this was 100% Ukrainian offensive to take the position or if it was an opportunity as a result of a failed DPR action.  Either way, in this war with so little terrain trading hands if one side takes something and holds it for more than a month I'd call it a "victory".  Very small, and perhaps meaningless in the big picture, but from a tactical combat standpoint significant.

Steve

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Fair enough re my overreaction, for the reasons given.

To clarify, not coming from personal inadequacies, more personal deep disgust at torture and the publication/dissemination of it - I view it as one final, very public punch in the face of the victim and their families. We've all seen nasty trolling; this on the initial read appeared completely unnecessary and especially so considering that the googlewebs can provide everything, with enough time. 

But now getting O/T though.

If I read the current information correctly:

  1. UKR has taken the observing positions and associated defensive works along that ridge, for a pretty good KIA/WIA ratio to the enemy
  2. DPR/RUS forces have attacked at least 3 times, with no usable success
  3. Harassment artillery continues, and is slowly growing/ Mortars, Grads and 122mm so far?
  4. MBT fire continues from both sides, but more as LR DF on hostile positions/soptted units, rather than as maneuver/assault fire against other MBTs - ie Tanks are present but not driving the battle. Ukraine has at least T54s involved or as a QRF.
  5. DPR/RUS are gearing up for further attacks, truce or not.

 

Edited by kinophile

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Yeah, I totally understand your reaction.  It should be the first one, in fact.  I know it was mine too.  But then I gave it a think and given the uncertainty that the video/pictures even existed it seemed to me that's was more likely the reason for the question.  At least I was hoping it was :)

It will be interesting to see how much of a big deal Russia makes of this rather small, though certainly embarrassing, engagement.  Russia has a lot of reasons to not want to get things too hot in general, but right now would be a really bad time to draw attention to Russia's role in Ukraine.  There's a lot of focus on Russia these days already.

Steve

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7 hours ago, kinophile said:
  1. UKR has taken the observing positions and associated defensive works along that ridge, for a pretty good KIA/WIA ratio to the enemy
  2. DPR/RUS forces have attacked at least 3 times, with no usable success
  3. Harassment artillery continues, and is slowly growing/ Mortars, Grads and 122mm so far?
  4. MBT fire continues from both sides, but more as LR DF on hostile positions/soptted units, rather than as maneuver/assault fire against other MBTs - ie Tanks are present but not driving the battle. Ukraine has at least T54s involved or as a QRF.
  5. DPR/RUS are gearing up for further attacks, truce or not.

Nope, they attacked forward platoon positions after artillery support with armored company or so. Defenders retreated, someone got killed. Than attackers got smashed by Russian artillery. (well, DPR, LNR, Russian - there is no difference for you I see) Occupying trenches is stupid, as they are seen on google maps. :) And sides surely have better sattelite photos, Now social media say that trenches are empty.

Probably that trenches:https://www.google.ru/maps/@48.3900873,38.2878641,498m/data=!3m1!1e3

Or that:https://www.google.ru/maps/@48.3830346,38.2891768,576m/data=!3m1!1e3

As artillery dominates the battlefield, holding trenches to last man has a little sence.

Estimating KIA ratio during events is impossible, I wouldn't believe social media or goverment propaganda.

 

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12 minutes ago, DMS said:

Probably that trenches:https://www.google.ru/maps/@48.3900873,38.2878641,498m/data=!3m1!1e3

Or that:https://www.google.ru/maps/@48.3830346,38.2891768,576m/data=!3m1!1e3

As artillery dominates the battlefield, holding trenches to last man has a little sence.

Estimating KIA ratio during events is impossible, I wouldn't believe social media or goverment propaganda.

 

Тrenches, whcih you have posted, are on eastern side of the lake - all fightings for hill with forest - on western side. No any tank company attacks, only in one day tank platoon shelled our positions. All our KIAs are becoming known in several days by name, you can see this list in Wiki. This data is gethering by volunteers. It is imposible to hide losses, when bodies of fallen soldiers are bringing home not by army, but by civil volunteers and burials conducting with all military honors. Now knowingly about 10 KIA,  

Edited by Haiduk

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Just now, Haiduk said:

Тrenches, whcih you have posted, are on eastern side of the lake - all fightings for hill with forest - on western side. All our KIAs are becoming known in several days by name, you can see this list in Wiki. This data is gethering by volunteers. It is imposible to hide losses, when bodies of fallen soldiers are bringing home not by army, but by civil volunteers and burials conducting with all military honors  

Yes, you are right, probably front line now is there: https://www.google.ru/maps/@48.3878554,38.2758157,1549a,20y,3.6h,10.12t/data=!3m1!1e3

And starting Ukrainian positions are there: https://www.google.ru/maps/@48.3976876,38.2696567,2492a,20y,3.6h,10.08t/data=!3m1!1e3

Now they try to cover flanks, by lake in this case. Tired of cauldrons. :)

And what if military doesn't give the body? Comrades of fallen will write post on Facebook or sign a petition? Come on. Do you want to say that Ukrainian military is so unprofessional, that can't keep secrecy?

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1 hour ago, DMS said:

As artillery dominates the battlefield, holding trenches to last man has a little sence.

I'm not former military...I'm fairly sure field trenches like these separated, non-linked examples are viewed in this conflict (by both sides) as primarily protection from artillery first, fire positions second and always as discardable. Taking them is definitely useful for protection.

To clarify - you're noting that Ukraine attacked DPR postions, who retreated and the attacking UKR inf were caught by Russian artillery?

Multiple, separate non-government sources are still putting total Ukrainian casualties as far lower than the DPR ones, so far - for now. This does not mesh with a suggestion of their attack getting smashed...although I'm equally certain Russian arty would have put a quick stop to Ukrainian movement, as in the infantry would have gone to ground ASAP.

Still, they currently occupy the former DPR positions. That hasn't changed since their assault/counter attack on the ridge. 

Google maps updates far too slowly for that to be a useful source for FOs. Binos and a small UAV would be far more useful. Eyeball Mk 1 on a nearby hill beats google every time.

 

Latest few DPR attacks dont appear to have made any progress, and Artillery fire appears to be more about preventing further Ukrainian advance/pin in place.

Currently I'm most interested in Russ/Separatists intent - typically, Russian practice has been to use a battlefield truce to rebuild/build up a force, no matter what politicians are saying. This is a local defeat which I doubt very very much the DPR or Russian handlers will allow stand.

From previous practice I'd guestimate (as a barely informed non-military dirty civvie) a Russian/DPR counter attack very soon after Christmas,of at least double the UKR defending infantry force, with significant arty prep, grad strikes at the rearward UKR tank  reserve and on-battlefield direct MBT support.

@Haiduk, do you know of UAV use by Ukrainian forces?

 

Edited by kinophile

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46 minutes ago, DMS said:

And what if military doesn't give the body?

Let try again. Military (local enlistment offices) only gives bodies to families, but bodies are delivering by civil volunteers from frontline. Soldiers on frontline are evacuating bodies and giving its to volunteers. All documents making, reports going up to HQs and on next day we hearing ... KIA, ... WIA. In delivering state and army doesn't play any role - they just can't do that, because no any servivces. It's completely substituted by civil volunteers as well as emergency evacuation groups of civil medics, which on crowdfunding money equipping emergency cars and carrying wounded from frontline to hospitals, because army medics almost havn't modern vehicles with modern reanimation equipment. Society is controlling army even more then it allowed in other countries, especially in such sensitive questions like injured and fallen... So, your conspiracy theories of Russia propaganda "Ukrainian generals hide losses" you can remain for yourself. And Russians, which buries own troopers in deep secret

@kinophile

All available information from the battle is going from volunteers and rarely from soldiers, which have twitter or FB. Video from UAVs if issuing, not early that through several weeks. I suppose, that our artillery recons and brigade recons are using it, but no information in present time. Also all 5x th new brigades equipped worth, than older, so I doubt, 54th brigade recons have own "birds". Except possibly Chineesse toys from volunteers...   

Edited by Haiduk

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Just now, kinophile said:

I'm not former military...I'm fairly sure field trenches like these separated, non-linked examples are viewed in this conflict (by both sides) as primarily protection from artillery first, fire positions second and always as discardable. Taking them is definitely useful for protection.

To clarify - you're noting that Ukraine attacked DPR postions, who retreated and the attacking UKR inf were caught by Russian artillery?

Multiple, separate non-government sources are still putting total Ukrainian casualties as far lower than the DPR ones, so far - for now. This does not mesh with a suggestion of their attack getting smashed...although I'm equally certain Russian arty would have put a quick stop to Ukrainian movement, as in the infantry would have gone to ground ASAP.

Still, they currently occupy the former DPR positions. That hasn't changed since their assault/counter attack on the ridge. 

Google maps updates far too slowly for that to be a useful source for FOs. Binos and a small UAV would be far more useful. Eyeball Mk 1 on a nearby hill beats google every time.

Latest few DPR attacks dont appear to have made any progress, and Artillery fire appears to be more about preventing further Ukrainian advance/pin in place.

 

Positions of trenches are well known, so they may give less protection than better covered fox hole. In any case, losses of Ukrainian company must be great. Several 152mm batteries are crushing small area 700x200 metres. Larger unit that attacks will have larger losses than small unit in forward thench, that falls back when major attack starts. So I wouldn't believe Ukrainan patriotic media. DNR reports 5 own KIA and 30 Ukrainian, but I wouldn't belive them too.

English sources are usually pro-Ukrainian. :) It's hard to calculate accurate losses ratio for WW 2 events, having documents of both sides. What to tell about nowdays events?

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As I promised, I post translated story of Ivan Myrnyi, serviceman of 54th brigade (looks like from assault company of Right Sector, which officially is a part of 1st battalion of this brigade). Myrnyi participated in second phase of assault of enemy positions 18th Dec and was there about two days. Original text has a lot of military slang, so I changed its on normal terms. My comments are in /.../ Original text here: 

TWO DAYS OF THE HELL

Morning...

Urgently TA-57 is shouting /ancient 1957 year WWII-style field telephone wire communication system, though 100 % stable for EW/: "Myrnyi, gather a group and fly on first "organism", there is orcs making breakthrough!"  I take three own guys and additionally six more from a company, advance, I am reserve group. We are sitting, waiting, listening by radio our counter-attack: "Shaitan /callsign of 3rd company commander/ have advanced forward, passed their observation position!". My guys are sitting and also going on the warpath - awaiting for orders...

To lunchtime:

"Reserve - to strongpoint! Will meet there with battalion recons and will go to trenches mop-up!". "Rodger!!!", I shout.

A route. I carring all pesonnel. Deputy of company commander says: "There are nobody /in first line of enemy trenches/! Need to seize their fforward position and secure on position!". Ok, if nobody there, we can rush on the armor's top. Our ten guys plus five from battalion recons embarked on BMP and ride forward... 800 meters have flew fast, 10 meters to their trenches, BMP is stopping... and hell have became! Orc is looking out from the trench and slashing armor with burst ! 10 meters !!! 10 f...g meters !!! And nobody !!! Nobody hit !!! I am falling from the armor, rifle didn't drop, have landed "lucky" - directly on coccys. No pain, adrenaline anywhere. All have lay down and peppering the trench with lead and brass. A shout from right! Van'ka "Piranha"! Under the BMP's track! I'm running to him, pulling, he's crying: "Bro, this thing have run on me, don't leave me !" I'm dragging him for TLBV... he turning blue... somebody is throwing  grenade in the trench... lleftside on the footpath I'm wathcing three organisms, splitting there dozen of bullets, guys are joining, two - one after other are falling down, third running away... Kiriukha from company is nearby on knees, I see by his eyes, he shell-shocked. I'm beating his back of the head and shout "Help me, @#&# !!!" Van'ka is crying, turning scarlet... BMP have moved, I'm seeing radio on the land, grasping it and cry out: "Kupol" to "Topol' "! "Kupol" to "Topol' " ! Need emergency evacuation! How assume?". "Rodger "Topol' ", a "box" /slang name of ligt armor/ through three little... I'm dragging Ivan... "Vania, don't leave me, Myrnyi, don't leave!". "Will not leave, bro! Keep yourself ! I going to make now injection to you, have patience, bro !". BMP is taxing up, peppering with fire a field in front of us. 20 meters to it... We are dragging... "Vania, now will be very painful, have patience, bro, have patience, Vania...". "Kiriukha, drag !!! DRAG, f...g b...ch, DRAG!!!!" We are dragging, Vania is crying... An iron rain over our heads, hit in the armor.. here is troop compartment, I'm opening, shouting "Kiriukha, go inside!", give "Piranha" to him, he is looking at me from inside, closing a door, shouting to driver "Go! Go ! Go !" With crawling move to separatists trench, there is dead orc under my foots, his skull cut out, nobody are paing attantion, walking on him... what to do... it's a war... I'm shouting "Shoot out tree-plant from left!", on rightside our guys as if took enemy position "Cross". "Topol', Topol' I'm "Shaytan". I'm turning back from orcs, don't shot me! ". "Rodger, Shaytan". I'm running on left flank, second dead separatist under my feets, also with cut out skull, brains outside, I'm overstapping him, shouting to own: "Our guys now will be going, don't shoot! ". "Shaytan, Shaytan, come, our guys are expecting for you". "Rodger, Topol', 300 meters to you..." I'm turning back to center, Max staying there and one infantryman, an arm of Max in blood. "Guys, get me out of here", he saying. "Now, bro, they will take you away". Infantryman also has injured right arm, a hole like a finger in thickness, I'm shouting: "Give me a transport, I have two 300th! /300th - callsign "wounded/ " "Shaytan, Shaytan, where are you?"... Silence... I'm calling once more... "I'm Gonta, I'm Gonta, "Shaytan" is 200th ! /200th - callsign "dead"/, have left there, I'm approaching to you". I'm crying with obscene language... They are coming, "Kinder", Gonta and "Dranyk". "Kinder's" leg is wounded. BMP is coming, we are embarking injured... hot like in the hell... I'm adjusting fire of artillery by radio, we are shooting to forest, 10 men in trenches. I'm calling reinforcement. "No reinforcement yet, wait". Enemy artillery is showering us. A half of us already shell-shocked. I'm calling out "We need evacuation!!! We can't hold here anymore!!!". "Minus... minus... Now ammunition will bring to you". Anton with broken arm, "Koliasik" is peppering tree-plant and field in front of us with PKM... One more injured... All already shell-shocked... Third hour of fight...      

I’m calling BMP by radio, it arriving, bringing ammunition. I’m embarking “Mongol“ and other injured, embarking with them, shouting: ”Koliasik! I will return with next !”. We are departing in troops compartment of BMP. On company strongpoint I’m finding the senior officer: “Lieutenatn, where is our reinforcement?! I need AGS, people, night vision devices and IR-sights – we will not hold positions in the night!”… There is nothing… I’m cussing out… “If there is no help, I will take my guys back and let f…k with that positions!”. “Explain this for the staff! ”, he is answering. I’m calling, chief of the staff is taking a handset: “Comrade colonel! Give a reinforcement for us!”. “Already done, they coming to you”, he is saying… After 15 minutes detachment of 25th battalion /25th motorized infantry battalion “Kyivska Rus’ ” of 54th mech.brigade, well experienced and mottivated unit/, with their senior, someone with callsign “Chornyi” /black/. We are driving back to positions. Kol’ka and recons are really glad. “What, brutes, did you think I had slipped away ?”. They are smiling, answering that no, even hadn’t thought about this – kidding me, possibly…   

… Night

Artillery is showering us further. Six of the group, which have remained, I gathered in blindage, appointed Kolian to PKM, we will change him by turns. “Chornyi” is running and shouting, that I put my soldiers in the trenches, I’m saying “You have enough people, let my guys take a rest till”. He is mumbling something like “how you, authorities, have bored us”, I’m crying in answer from blindage that he is “rubber product” /metaphorically - condom/ and promising to beat his face. My ribs and coccyx are starting to ache, very painfully, having blinger of a headache, it’s all – adrenaline is gone. We are exiting by turns to the trench nearby, skirmishing with separatists, I’m laying can’t to stand up. At 24:00 BMP with ammunition is arriving, guys saying that I leave with it, I’m politely telling them to eff off. BMP is taking “200th” separatists, total 4 organisms. Gonta is sitting and only not weeping – there is impossible to take away the body of “Shaytan”. Close to morning enemy is beginning to shell us with rifles, we are hearing they have approached on 250-300 meters, later 122 mm barrels are showering, just explosions only heard, already when impact… I’m injecting nablufin – a pain is subsiding, but I’m starting to switching off – is this a drug? Through seven hours only me have let went off, suppressing the chills on the side with ibuprophen. I’m calling to deputy of company commander, but us will not substitute so far…

Second morning

I have swallowed ibuprophen, bones are aching less, walking around with guys, picking up bullets… Big desire to naff out of here, but I’m not showing this outwardly. Andriukha is sitting, shaking, - never mind, bro, it’s not bad to fear… “This is my first SUCH fight”, he is saying, his eyes  frightened, hiding after each explosion, me fearfully to the hell too, but as commander I must keep cool… I’m praying in tenth time… “Never mind, guys, we will be substituted soon!”, but somehow it came out uncertainly, I’m trying to joke, sometime going in the trench, shooting out 2-3 cartridges on each shot from enemy side and reloading. Romka from battalion recons is sitting here too… He’s telling he had called to own commander and he had ordered them to be ready to  move back. “No”, I’m saying, “I need to wait reinforcement for my guys”…

 

Close to lunchtime a hell again… Enemy is shelling in our trench with all weapon, which they can. We are hearing, that they are crawling too much close. We are opening return fire, ammo are melting like a snow under machine-gun. I’m calling deputy of company commander again: “Bro! All my people already shell-shocked – WHERE IS OUR REINFORCEMENT ?!!!”. “Stand by…”. I really don’t want to be captured and don’t want to die too… In order to suppress these thoughts I’m reloading cartridges. Bones and head are aching unbearably. After lunchtime three our guys are coming, I unbelievly glad to see “Zubr”… Other guys are on route, I’m keep my group in place so far… In tenth time guys are taking me in order I will not beat face of “Chornyi”. In 18:00 it gets a dark, MTLB is arriving, we are flying on the top, at a moment unloading ammunition and side by side ducking inside vehicle. We are have been substituted. All way back I’m thanking to God. Near our positions MTLB is breaking down, I’m taking shell-shocked soldier and our five guys and walking to company strongpoint. On the way our troops are shelling us twice… Came to positions, I want to kiss the land, but keep cool view, Americans say “be cool”. My car is standing on the same place, when I have stayed, throwing rifles on the seat. “Koliasik” is sitting up front, we are driving to the base, about 10 kilometers. I’m calling to my wife, she is weeping, two days didn’t speak with me. All right, I’m saying… I’m alive… Today a st.Nicolas holiday /celebrating in 19th Dec in Ukraine/, thanks for gift…  

Edited by Haiduk

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Just now, Haiduk said:

Let try again. Military (local enlistment offices) only gives bodies to families, but bodies are delivering by civil volunteers from frontline. Soldiers on frontline are evacuating bodies and giving its to volunteers. All documents making, reports going up to HQs and on next day we hearing ... KIA, ... WIA. In delivering state and army doesn't play any role - they just can't do that, because no any servivces. It's completely substituted by civil volunteers as well as emergency evacuation group of civil medics, which by crowdfunding money equipping emergency cars and carrying wounded from frontline to hospitals, because army medics almost havn't modern vehicles with modern reanimation equipment. Society controlling army even more then it allowed in other countries, especially in such sensitive questions like injured and fallen... So, your conspiracy theories of Russia propaganda "Ukrainian generals hide losses" you can remain for you. And Russians, which buries own troopers in deep secret. 

:) Largest Ukrainian facebook volunteer group.

Сестра милосердя АТО/ Харків

"Дорогие друзья, приносим извинения, но мы не сможем более указывать в цифре сколько поступает ребят, вы должны понять."

"Dear friends, we're sorry, but we can not specify a figure in how much comes guys, you have to understand."

Link: https://www.facebook.com/Sistermerci/posts/1826623920887027

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13 minutes ago, DMS said:

:) Largest Ukrainian facebook volunteer group.

Сестра милосердя АТО/ Харків

"Дорогие друзья, приносим извинения, но мы не сможем более указывать в цифре сколько поступает ребят, вы должны понять."

"Dear friends, we're sorry, but we can not specify a figure in how much comes guys, you have to understand."

Link: https://www.facebook.com/Sistermerci/posts/1826623920887027

Largest ? Ha! No more other sources? Twitter Helgi_UA - medic of 54th brigade for example. Anyway KIAs will be here soon or later: https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Втрати_силових_структур_внаслідок_російського_вторгнення_в_Україну_(з_жовтня_2016)

About your "several batteries have smashed all"... Looks like you really think there Kursk scale battle or many time play in CM, when artillery strikes much deadly then in real %) Why separs didn't show a video with hundreds of corpses, but  only two, if our troops "withdrew " and separs again have took own positions back ? Do you seen video on previous page - separs position in several hundred meters southward from the forest. 

Edited by Haiduk

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Just now, Haiduk said:

Largest ? Ha! No more other sources? Twitter Helgi_UA - medic of 54th brigade for example. Anyway KIAs will be here soon or later: https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Втрати_силових_структур_внаслідок_російського_вторгнення_в_Україну_(з_жовтня_2016)

About your "several batteries have smashed all"... Looks like you really think there Kursk scale battle or many time play in CM, when artillery strikes much deadly then in real %) Why separs didn't show a video with hundreds of corpses, but  only two, if our troops "withdrew " and separs again have took own positions back ? Do you seen video on previous page - separs position in several hundred meters southward from the forest. 

In Kursk time Soviet regiment had 76mm guns as artillery support, Nowdays artillery is a little more powerfull, accurate and deadly.

Because they don't want to waste soldiers under heavy artillery fire. It is noman's land now,

We will know for sure after 20 years or so, when Ukrainian army documents will be published. :)

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Just now, DMS said:

In Kursk time Soviet regiment had 76mm guns as artillery support, Nowdays artillery is a little more powerfull, accurate and deadly.

Because they don't want to waste soldiers under heavy artillery fire. It is noman's land now,

We will know for sure after 20 years or so, when Ukrainian army documents will be published. :)

Well, they walked free without any shellings and showed only two corpses.

Damn, why Russians so like conspiracy theories? We have complete list of confirmed losses - every can see it. Every name of 3640 lost this time - combat and non-combat losses together. Have Russians such list ? Or "there is no our troops in Donbas" ? And to beat off deputies, which want to make photo of graves?

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Just now, Haiduk said:

Well, they walked free without any shellings and showed only two corpses.

Damn, why Russians so like conspiracy theories? We have complete list of confirmed losses - every can see it. Every name of 3640 lost this time - combat and non-combat losses together. Have Russians such list ? Or "there is no our troops in Donbas" ? And to beat off deputies, which want to make photo of graves?

Hiding losses is not a conspiracy theory, but a usual thing. Number of losses is a valuable intel data, and it won't be published uncensored. Not to mention propaganda, that is important part of this war. It is so naive to say that Ukrainian society is so open and democratic, that hiding losses and censoring news are impossible.

So, 3640 is a minimal estimate, not maximal.

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22 minutes ago, DMS said:

Hiding losses is not a conspiracy theory, but a usual thing. Number of losses is a valuable intel data, and it won't be published uncensored. Not to mention propaganda, that is important part of this war. It is so naive to say that Ukrainian society is so open and democratic, that hiding losses and censoring news are impossible.

So, 3640 is a minimal estimate, not maximal.

Man, we are not Israel. Hundreds of our soldiers have own accounts in network, thousands of volunteers is supplying frontline and seeing all what happen there, of cousre, some of them like to share panic. News about each even platoon-level fight is immediately sharing in network faster, then official information. To hide loses in these conditions just impossible. If you want to beleieve in 100500+ hidden UKR soldiers - it's your business. This topic not for this discussion.

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Just now, Haiduk said:

Man, we are not Israel. Hundreds of our soldiers have own accounts in network, thousands of volunteers is supplying frontline and seeing all what happen there, of cousre, some of them like to share panic. News about each even platoon-level fight is immediately sharing in network faster, then official information. To hide loses in these conditions just impossible. If you want to beleieve in 100500+ hidden UKR soldiers - it's your business. This topic not for this discussion.

If soldier makes photo of his fallen comrade with hole in the head and posts this foto in social media - that is very strange soldier. Of if he just tells about it. Veterans usually don't tell about such things after many years, I can not imagine real soldier that will chat in facebook about this. To read happy comments from people on the other side?

You started discussion. :) I just said, that public information about losses is very inaccurate and shouldn't be estimated as 100% true. Even if it is official Ukrainian information. :)

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