Separatist push/Ukraine shove back

[DMS]

9 hours ago, JUAN DEAG said:

This name was given to the Ukrainian defenders by the separatists. Ukrainians didn't create that name for themselves.

No. ) It is naive propaganda myth. "Separatists" gave them another name, starting with letter "p".

[Haiduk]

14 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Offensive from Ukraine has stopped, now it's just some fire coming out both sides.

Offensive with two not full companies ? Are you joking ? %) This was local fight  - no more. We have pushed separs far from our forward position near "Kikimora" forest, completely took under control Novoluhanske and now are building strongpoint on it southern outskirt (possibly is preparing a bridgehead to battle for height 318, which dominates over Novoluhanske), we have seize one height near Troitske settlement on east flank of Svitlodarsk bulge. Tasks in whole were completed. A tactic of "small steps forward" will be continue.

12 hours ago, DMS said:

that were not heroes in fact.

... Have said divan computer game "hero"...

Edited December 31, 2016 by Haiduk

[DMS]

1 hour ago, Haiduk said:

... Have said divan computer game "hero"...

You don't understand that glorifying fake heroes you forget about real heroes. May be some Ukrainian solder really made something outstanding, but media were talking stories about "cyborgs" and didn't note him. All men in DAP are "heroes" just becaues they are in the focus of media, all others are on background. And then they loose and surrender, Nothing shamefull for a sodier, but not for "cyborg".

Though as "DNR supporter" I must greet such unprofessional Ukrainian propaganda!

[ParanoidMoron]

39 minutes ago, DMS said:

Though as "DNR supporter" I must greet such unprofessional Ukrainian propaganda!

As a DNR supporter how do you feel about poorly made Russian/pro-Russian propaganda about Baltic female snipers, Apache attack helicopters, Abrams tanks and F-22s taking part in Ukraine's civil war, black mercenaries abusing inhabitants of Donetsk? 

Ukrainian side is not the only one that has made abysmal and mendacious claims. 

Edited December 31, 2016 by ParanoidMoron

[Kinophile]

20 hours ago, DMS said:

What about DAP, it is a question of psy-ops, not regular unit operations. Ukrainian propaganda tried to make "Ukrainian Pavlov's house" with "cyborgs", but failed, Myth of superior morale and skill of Ukrainian soldiers was disproved. DNR propaganda didn't create myth of "cyborgs", didn't tell everyone about heroes, that were not heroes in fact. So their gains were more than losses. DNR commander "Giwi" humilates cyborg commander, what could be worse for Ukrainian morale? If Ukrainians would be more humble and wouldn't start propaganda campaign, that episode would be minor engagement on front line. So, tactically that victory was small, wasn't worth losses, but Ukrainians by themselves made it a big event.

I think it's more simple - after Months of bad news,  Ukrainian news/media/politicians/military  were desperate for a positive story,  which the UKR resistance at DAP appeared to be.

Thence they focussed heavily on this easily told story of a mini-Stalingrad. Haiduk point about the fight against LPR forces is revealing -  it's harder to tell a mobile, shifting story about multiple scattered units fighting through a long geographical zone -  versus a fortress story in an easily identified location. 

No matter the final result,  the DAP battle broke the Ukrainian public impression of never ending Russian inflicted loss after loss. By holding out at DAP for as long as they did the UKR troops showed that, man-for-man, they were the equal of their opponents. 

Naturally,  a defender always has inherent advantages,  but still -  that wasn't an easy place to defend,  and they held out for a very respectable time. 

For Ukrainian troops and the public,  I believe this was an important psychological boost, at a very vulnerable time -  namely,  "we can beat them" .  

This seems to be the real gain for Ukraine,  and its mirror consequent loss of psychological advantage by Russia. A quick, heavy UKR defeat at DAP would  have been a good, strong Plus for Putin.  Added to Debaltsev later on it would certainly have strengthened his hand at Minsky. Instead, his proxies bungled it for too long, ruining the airport as an asset,  wasting vital operational time,  exposing their relative inferiority and giving Ukraine an avoidable morale victory. 

[Machor]

20 hours ago, JUAN DEAG said:

none of these nations recognize Crimea as being Russian territory, at least not publicly. My statement still stands.

Nicaragua and North Korea have publicly recognized Crimea as Russian territory:

"КНДР поддержала присоединение Крыма"

https://www.novayagazeta.ru/news/2014/12/30/109048-kndr-podderzhala-prisoedinenie-kryma

"Северная Корея считает «полностью оправданным» присоединение Крыма к России, заявил глава департамента печати и информации МИД КНДР Чжон Дон Хак в интервью ТАСС.

...

Единственной страной, официально признавшей Крым частью России, является Никарагуа. Референдум о независимости, по итогам которого Крым вошел в состав РФ, признали Афганистан, Венесуэла, Куба и Сирия."

[Machor]

6 hours ago, kinophile said:

For Ukrainian troops and the public,  I believe this was an important psychological boost, at a very vulnerable time -  namely,  "we can beat them" .  

This seems to be the real gain for Ukraine,  and its mirror consequent loss of psychological advantage by Russia.

And the most striking example that I can think of from history to illustrate the strategic significance of a minor operation for psychological reasons is the Doolittle Raid.

This will be my last post for 2016 - Happy New Year to everyone! 

[JUAN DEAG]

4 hours ago, Machor said:

Nicaragua and North Korea have publicly recognized Crimea as Russian territory:

"КНДР поддержала присоединение Крыма"

https://www.novayagazeta.ru/news/2014/12/30/109048-kndr-podderzhala-prisoedinenie-kryma

"Северная Корея считает «полностью оправданным» присоединение Крыма к России, заявил глава департамента печати и информации МИД КНДР Чжон Дон Хак в интервью ТАСС.

...

Единственной страной, официально признавшей Крым частью России, является Никарагуа. Референдум о независимости, по итогам которого Крым вошел в состав РФ, признали Афганистан, Венесуэла, Куба и Сирия."

I was wrong then. 

[Kinophile]

 One Ukrainian source suggests 'militant'  Grads are moving up. 

I'm assuming this is a standard repo to a enemy push, rather than a build to a full-on counterattack (albeit still possible). 

Could sufficient heavy shelling alone force the UKR troops to fall back? 

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, kinophile said:

 One Ukrainian source suggests 'militant'  Grads are moving up. 

I'm assuming this is a standard repo to a enemy push, rather than a build to a full-on counterattack (albeit still possible). 

Could sufficient heavy shelling alone force the UKR troops to fall back? 

Of course, if their salvo will be precision. But this movement is more for protection against possible further advancing of our troops. 

[Kinophile]

Figured. 

[Haiduk]

Digging in on new positions. Probably near Novoluhanske, but can be also on captured enemy positions in the forest. But.. Why they are using long shovels for market-garden ?

 

[Battlefront.com]

When digging in frozen ground you have to sacrifice surface area in order to "pierce" frozen.  At least that is my theory based on digging into hard ground

Steve

[Machor]

On 26/12/2016 at 4:12 PM, Haiduk said:

Donbas soil mostly too hard for digging - on the 0,6-1 m deep rocky hard groud lays. Without special vehicles is too hard to build proper defense lines.

In response to this and digging frozen ground - does Ukraine issue explosive charges for this purpose?

[Kinophile]

Nah, the separatist/militants and their Russian uncles provide them to their Ukrainian 'brothers', freely and abundantly.

But their distribution is just terrible.

Edited January 4, 2017 by kinophile

[Machor]

This is from Gordon Rottman's US World War II and Korean War Field Fortifications 1941 – 53 (Osprey, 2005; p. 25):

"Exceedingly hard, rocky, or frozen ground proved to be virtually impossible to dig in with infantry hand tools. Blasting was necessary. A small starter hole was hand-dug and a small charge inserted. This created a small crater in which progressively larger charges were detonated until a hole of the desired size was obtained. Loose spoil was shoveled out, the hole’s interior squared off, and firing steps added. Standard charges included 0.5 and 1 lb TNT (the latter not available until 1943), 2.5 lb M2 tetrytol, and 2.25 lb M3 or M4 C2 or C3 plastic explosive. In Normandy the assault troops were issued 0.5 lb TNT blocks (pictured) to quickly blast foxholes and withstand counterattacks. These were provided with a 6in. safety fuze with a blasting cap crimped on one end and an M1 friction fuze igniter on the other; the assembly was waterproofed with a condom. The fuze assembly was carried inside the canteen carrier beneath the canteen while the TNT block was taped to bayonet scabbards or pistol holsters or carried inside the pack. M1 and M2-series 10 lb shaped-charges, intended for destroying concrete structures, were sometimes used to create deep starter holes in which to insert cratering charges."

I know you have to be careful about avalanches in the mountains, but why can't they just blast through the soil in eastern Ukraine?

As a proverb of the US Army's Combat Engineers supposedly goes: "There ain't no problem which can't be solved with enough C4." 

(I don't have a source for this - I read it on an Army forum while hoping to enlist through the MAVNI program, when I was warming up to 21B.)

Edited January 5, 2017 by Machor
Disclaimer didn't post because it was in brackets.

[John Kettler]

Haiduk,

Would say the answers to your questions lie in greater mass, (thus, greater KE than for an ET), ability to stomp down on shovel blade, higher capacity per scoop, greater ability to move spoil rapidly from the excavated area, etc. ETs are very much better than, say, helmets when it comes to digging, but there's no substitute for a full sized shovel when it comes to efficiently and quickly digging fighting positions. If you read the right accounts, you can find WW II battles such as Tilly where at least some of the line infantry went into the attack equipped with standard shovels, not ETs, precisely because they were so much better than ETs for the conditions. Naturally, engineers, AFVs and other vehicles carry standard shovels as normal kit.

Regards,

John Kettler

[GAZ NZ]

I wonder how many of these soldiers have un diagnosed concussion

The effects of short and long term concussion exposure making them combat ineffective 

They get concussion form the blast effects of artillery - explosives going off

poor guys

The US had 000s I under stood with diagnosed concussion in the middle east wars

Result was breakdown, depression, suicides etc in many returning vets the effects are being studied and looked into now

 

[Haiduk]

On 04.01.2017 at 5:52 PM, Machor said:

In response to this and digging frozen ground - does Ukraine issue explosive charges for this purpose?

Soviet engineer units have huge amount of different digging and excavating vehicles and Ukraine have inherited it. Sappers have HE charges in their ammunition and can use it for many purposes. This method, I think also useful, but oly if you have hard (frozen) terrain and no one digging vehcile around... All three defense lines were created with engineer vehicles and mobilized civil building technics.

 

On 06.01.2017 at 1:01 PM, GAZ NZ said:

 

I wonder how many of these soldiers have un diagnosed concussion

Soldiers say about 2/3 of infantrymen have at least one light concussion. But even with average shell-shoking many soldiers don't want to go in hospitals. They are receiving an aid in battalion or brigade medic unit and are returning to own companies. As I posted above, officially in Svetlodarsk bulge battle we have 39 injured and shell-shocked, but really their 70. Rest just rejected from hospitalisation and didn't get into statistic. 

One more photo of soldiers of this battle. Valeria Burlakova, 30-year commander of AGS-17 squad. Awarded with medal "For military service" for this battle. She is not professional military. Two years ago she was a journalist of "Ukrainian's week". In 2014 she have a traininng in "Aydar" battalion military camp. After this she fought in OUN volunteer battalion and later as medic-rifleman in mech.platoon of 93rd mech.brigade. Since 2016 in AGS crew of 1st battalion of 54th mech.brigade. Her fiance and combat comrade from 93th brigade got killed in February of 2016... 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Haiduk

[Machor]

Thank you for the, as always, informative post. This thread has made me experiment with foxholes and trenches, and it seems to me that this is one area where the infantry TacAI in 4.0 needs further tweaking. While I love the self-preservation of the new TacAI, it seems to abandon foxholes and trenches way too easily, and it only adds insult to injury when they get taken over by attacking enemy infantry and used against you. In CMFB, I've had an entire infantry company routed out of trenches by six 81mm mortars. I think the TacAI could be tweaked to accept higher casualties at least before withdrawing from trenches, if not foxholes.

[John Kettler]

GAZ,

It's much worse than that. There's a phenomenon called blast brain from being close to detonating explosives.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/06/08/480608042/an-army-buddys-call-for-help-sends-a-scientist-on-brain-injury-quest

Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy in Blast-Exposed Military Veterans and a Blast Neurotrauma Mouse Model

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3739428/

"Blast exposure is associated with traumatic brain injury (TBI), neuropsychiatric symptoms, and long-term cognitive disability. We examined a case series of postmortem brains from U.S. military veterans exposed to blast and/or concussive injury. We found evidence of chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), a tau protein–linked neurodegenerative disease, that was similar to the CTE neuropathology observed in young amateur American football players and a professional wrestler with histories of concussive injuries. We developed a blast neurotrauma mouse model that recapitulated CTE-linked neuropathology in wild-type C57BL/6 mice 2 weeks after exposure to a single blast. Blast-exposed mice demonstrated phosphorylated tauopathy, myelinated axonopathy, microvasculopathy, chronic neuroinflammation, and neurodegeneration in the absence of macroscopic tissue damage or hemorrhage. Blast exposure induced persistent hippocampal-dependent learning and memory deficits that persisted for at least 1 month and correlated with impaired axonal conduction and defective activity-dependent long-term potentiation of synaptic transmission. Intracerebral pressure recordings demonstrated that shock waves traversed the mouse brain with minimal change and without thoracic contributions. Kinematic analysis revealed blast-induced head oscillation at accelerations sufficient to cause brain injury. Head immobilization during blast exposure prevented blast-induced learning and memory deficits. The contribution of blast wind to injurious head acceleration may be a primary injury mechanism leading to blast-related TBI and CTE. These results identify common pathogenic determinants leading to CTE in blast-exposed military veterans and head-injured athletes and additionally provide mechanistic evidence linking blast exposure to persistent impairments in neurophysiological function, learning, and memory."

The results make horrifying reading. Speaking as someone who himself is recuperating from an head impact induced TBI, I deeply relate to what's being said. As far as I'm concerned, every veteran here needs to read the items above. The first few paragraphs of the Introduction and the harrowing Results will suffice. Even now, I'm trying to get a high resolution brain scan (DTI, way better than a standard MRI) done to see what actual physiological damage may be present yet unseen on the MRI I have had. Since I have a bunch of cognitive issues I didn't have before the TBI, coupled with a worsening of already existing issues, I wouldn't be surprised were there to be damage found. My doctor, myself and family want a definitive answer on this, and my neurologist is trying to find a way to get this done. Meanwhile, after fielding thousands of blast gauges meant to determine personnel exposure to blast, the Pentagon has pulled them, prompting an outcry from the former Army Vice Chief of Staff.  An earlier article I read but can't find now showed that a blast brain, when examined post mortem, has distinct granular formations in it found in no other form of brain injury. Further, there is a direct link between blast exposure and cognitive problems. Who's got it worst? The people who teach explosive breaching! Why? Like radiation, it's a dosage related phenomenon. The longer and higher the exposure, the worse the effects. Their exposure is chronic, as opposed to one or few and aperiodic.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

 

Edited January 10, 2017 by John Kettler

[Haiduk]

Ukrainian MoD speaker today have said that UKR troops took new positions on Svitlodarsk bulge. Thus, he has confirmed yesterday information in FB from civil volunteer, former soldier of 54th brigade about this. Looks like this happened on Christmas holidays while enemy lost vigilance. Hard to say what exactly positions were seized, possibly nearest "Star" or(and) "checkpoint 5" in the forest, which after 23rd Dec remained abandoned by both sides. 

Here FB post of Yury Mysiahin and translation below:

Shortly and without details.

On Svitlodarsk bulge we have a little new positions have appeared.

Our /guys/ have very tried and, above all, have made this quiet.

"Separs" have guessed about all only afterwards, have become active themeselves, but was too late.

Positions are our and our firmly.

Already strongpoints are standing on its.

We need organized to there 4500 meters of electrical cable in ordrer to guys in blindages will have electricity and light.

Working.     

If we will measure distance from company strongpoint to southern end of forest we will receive 2300 m.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Haiduk

[Kinophile]

Yeah, that's quite an extended advance guard...its a long way to fall back if things turn nasty.

[Haiduk]

Next step yesterday. But author said in comment that not in the forest, but "some aside". I think, we seized some heights in vicinity of Lozove village some westward from "Kikimora" forest. Also author say "our guys, when go on some heights, already observate outskirts of Debaltsevo"

Translation:

Freshest.

Shortly and without details

Yesterday on Svitlodarsk bulge our guys from 54th brigade much more have step forward very well. 

Up to 1 km.

Yes, we have new positions again!

And already our srtongpoints are standing on its.

Enemy can't do nothing. Nothing.

We are all working well

Rear service is operatively delivering a wood /for trenches and blindages/

Engineer service - sandbags and clamps /for merging of wooden elements/ (though, we have a some lack of this, but never mind, we will solve this)

Volunteers - electricity hardware and many other

And no any violations!

According to all international agreements this is our territory

Working for victory

Have a nice day! 

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Haiduk

[Marwek77 aka Red Reporter]

If the attack goes too well... maybe its a trap